OUTRAGE OVER WHALING ... #2 <cont>

My anecdotal experience is that a lot of them are off put by the whaling when their face is stuck in it (which is why I like Greenpeace's documenting tactic even if it's an appeal to emotion), but the majority support whaling rights as an issue of sovereignty. Plus, a lot of them think red meat is more disgusting anyway. They are very blood-averse so I don't know how much lasting impact it has.

The little I've found in the Japanese media (I've had the same problems as you, given my weak Japanese and inability to read it anymore) seemed to corroborate that.



I know, I'm a relentless and stubborn bastard in discussions once I'm hooked. I've often felt bad about knowing people who'd rather just comment and follow along are feeling compelled to defend and tried to refrain. But being the person I am I've felt compelled to post sometimes as well. I get overly engaged and pedantic easily and really do get too focused about trying to find out what's "right". It's not really about making the other person "wrong" for me and it comes from a lifetime of very vigorous debate being what most taught me what I know (and from having a brother who's as comfortable as I am in rough and tumble discussion) but I do appreciate that not many people are comfortable with the intense and possibly even inordinately confrontational way I discuss things.

The good news is that I'm currently in a hotel in a foreign country with not much else to do (on a visa trip). Tomorrow I go back home and won't have time to inundate the thread and will better be able to ignore it. ;-)

Well, I've found these last few exchanges really interesting & illuminating, Robert. Particularly to learn more about your motivation & interest in the whaling debate. A lot more is clearer to me now. Thank you for being so candid. I have tried to be, too. I sincerely hope I haven't caused you offense in the process.

New developments as reported from today's Sydney Morning Herald.:

Greenpeace pursues Japanese whalers
January 12, 2008 - 11:11AM/SMH


The MV Esperanza in Auckland in 2007.
Photo: AFP

A Greenpeace protest ship is in pursuit of a fleet of Japanese whalers in the Southern Ocean after finding the vessels early this morning.

Expedition leader aboard the Greenpeace vessel Esperanza Karli Thomas said the six Japanese ships fled when Greenpeace located them shortly after midnight (AEDT).

"The first thing they did when we approached them was to scatter and run," Thomas said.

"We stayed with the factory ship the Nisshin Maru, which is always the major target," she said.

She said Greenpeace was engaged in high-speed pursuit of the whaling ships and would take non-violent action to stop them hunting more of the marine mammals.

Greenpeace broadcasted a message in Japanese and English to the whaling ships condemning the hunt and insisted they to return to port immediately.

"Your so-called scientific whaling is a hoax and has been dismissed as useless by the International Whaling Commission. Modern scientific research on whales does not require killing them," the message said.

Thomas said the crew gave a collective sigh of relief after locating the Japanese ships so quickly.

The Esperanza left Auckland on December 22, but has only been in the Southern Ocean for 10 days.

International spokesman for Japan's Institute of Cetacean Research, Glenn Inwood, said his organisation believed Greenpeace used whaling as a way of fundraising.

"We have made our views known on the whole Greenpeace thing. Japan's research is legal. What (protest groups) Sea Shepherd and Greenpeace do is illegal," he said.

Australian customs vessel the Oceanic Viking left Western Australia on Tuesday to monitor the Japanese fleet at work.

The Australian ship plans to spend 20 days gathering video and photographic evidence for a possible international court case against Japanese whaling.

Japan plans to kill 935 minke whales and 50 fin whales, which conservationists say are endangered, during this year's hunt as part of what it claims to be a research program.

Plans to hunt 50 humpback whales were dropped by Japan after heavy pressure from Australia and America.

The confrontation in the Southern Ocean is the first since last year, when the Japanese whale hunt ended early due to an accidental fire aboard the Nisshin Maru that killed one crew member.

AAP

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/greenpeace-pursues-japanese-whalers/2008/01/12/1199988630020.html

I'm easy to agitate but hard to offend. No offense taken here, you are far too polite to make me anything but feeling a bit sheepish at times at my more boorish personality.

Some of my motivation in the whaling debate that I haven't mentioned is that the Blue Whale and Sperm Whale both spent time as my favorite animal in my childhood. Not as much time as the Cheetah (just because I wanted to be the fastest human the Cheetah was my hero) but I've always loved megafauna and a lot of my favorite animals are in the sea (dolphins, orcas, squid....). One of my favorite days of my life was a day in Japan where the tide filled these volcanic rock formations with warm pools full of ocean creatures. The part where I popped a beached jellyfish by jumping on it (an adult had told me it was a plastic bag) didn't even ruin it for me. That day I brought home an octopus, a squid (the coolest since it changed colours, but the larger octopus killed it), starfish and a bunch of crabs. I was too young and stupid to keep them alive and putting salt in the chlorinated water didn't work out too well but the dry starfish even made its way to Oz with me later on. As a kid I was a huge animal lover and my mom still teases me about how I used to attack kids for stepping on ants or try to make the dried fish snacks in Japan come back to life in the bathtub. I've changed a bit since, and my heart grew a bit harder (I partially blame encountering ants that bite, since none that I know of in Japan do but in Brazil there were some that could make grown men cry) but I still have a lot of respect for people who have a bigger heart than I do for animals. I don't remember which philosopher said it and I read it in a translation so I'll paraphrase but it went: "You can tell a lot about a society by how it treats its animals." I agree and those whose hearts bleed for animals are a better lot socially than most, even if I often disagree with them on more abstract ethical things on how to go about it.

Another reason I'm passionate about this issue is that I spent a lot of my life in Japan and some of it in Australia and for most of my life held Australia as the "best country" on earth (I now realize there is no "best country" and it depends on your own situation in each) but this is a dispute between a country where a lot of my heritage comes from and the one I've held most fondly over the years.

But more than anything else, my motivation is my absolute hatred of the concept of extinction. Which is why I want that argument to succeed even at the cost of the other positions (and like I've said, I feel the others weaken the extinction argument). Ever since I first understood the concept I couldn't abide the finality of it all. I was between 4 and 6 years old but I still remember the book where I learned about extinction very very vividly. It was about the dodo and I was right pissed that I'd never see them myself. I can still see the illustrations of the sailors clubbing the birds....

And one day I realized I want certain animals to be extinct. Namely the mosquito. Then the animal rights ethics became a big puzzle in my head that I'm still trying to solve (and got a bit closer on this thread)

This topic touches on a lot of things I hold dear or am passionate about. But then again, I'm intensely (insanely?) curious about all topics so a lot of it's just my personality.

Anyway, I learned an awful lot from this. I really mean it. I don't mean to have put you on the defense but in the process I picked up more information than I have in a loooong looong time and many of your posts are responsible for hours and hours of reading on my end (from your posts to research to my positions to research to redefining my positions to....) and am quite grateful to you for sparking the "google/wikipedia nights" I've had over the last few days. Those are my favorite nights (if you ask me 2 years from now I'll still remember what you made me read).

You'd probably be surprised to know I learned some stuff about chemistry, videography and even Egypt (don't ask I got there on accident from a typo) when researching stuff you made me curious about on the whale threads.

Thanks! There is nothing I hold more dear than learning new things and when you are as curious as I am it gets harder and harder to find new territory and you made me find more than I've run into in a few months. I've now contracted another case of logorrhea but somewhere in there I hope you get my very sincere gratitude. And it (the learning you triggered) probably won't end for a while. I just remembered that dlowan started the animal equality thread and I've got more to think about.... crap I might miss my plane tomorrow if I get started on that.

Anywho, thanks again!

Robert

I've read your last post through a few times. I (think) I can see where you're coming from.

To me, the issue has become one of power and how it is exercised. If humans (or in reality, some few, extremely powerful humans have the power to hold sway over the fate of more vulnerable living beings (animal, & human, too, for that matter) on this planet (for profit), then how do we control, or even influence their decisions? I don't know. It's a very tough call. In the meantime, I don't have too much argument with active resistance to those powers, particularly when I consider the likely outcome for the planet if things continue as they are now. If that's the best we can come up with.

Robert said: "They are very blood-averse so I don't know how much lasting impact it has."



Whales don't have blood? I don't get that at all, in terms of whale vs beef...especially since they spend a FORTUNE on Australian beef. Can you explain what you mean?

Latest update. Sunday morning, Oz time.:

Whalers on the run as Greenpeace gives chase
Frank Walker and Andrew Darby
January 13, 2008/SMH

A Greenpeace protest ship was chasing a fleet of Japanese whalers in the Southern Ocean last night.

A spokesman aboard the Greenpeace vessel Esperanza, Sara Holden, said the six Japanese ships fled when they were found early yesterday after a 10-day search.

"The first thing they did when we approached them was scatter and run," Ms Holden said. "It was foggy but we could see them on the radar and the mother ship Nisshin Maru passed us quite close, about half a mile.

"We have been chasing it ever since at about 15 knots. The good thing is as long as they are running from us they can't kill any whales.

"We'll keep chasing them for as long as we can. If they do stop to hunt whales, we will use all non-violent means to try to stop them."

Greenpeace has repeatedly radioed the whalers and told them to leave the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary. It has also told them that its protest would be non-violent.

The more militant Sea Shepherd group expects to join the chase today. Yesterday its president Paul Watson was steaming at full speed, in his ship the Steve Irwin, towards the spot where Greenpeace found the whalers. He said they were far to the south-west of Perth, closer to Africa than Australia. But there is no co-operation between the groups.

"Greenpeace won't tell us the position of the fleet, but I have enough friends inside Greenpeace who have leaked us the location," Captain Watson said. "Greenpeace will take their pictures of whales being killed but when we arrive we will provide the finale. We will stop the hunt.

"We are willing to risk our lives to protect the whales. We have done so many times and we will continue to do so. We are not afraid of losing our ship and we are not afraid of dying."

The whalers face serious disruption less than half-way through their season.

They had hoped to kill almost 1000 fin and minke whales after being told by the Japanese Government to drop their humpback quota in a deal with the US following escalating pressure from Australia.

Last night the whalers had a warning for Greenpeace.

"Past activities of Greenpeace have been responsible for vessel collisions that risk the lives and safety of our researchers and crew and are illegal under international maritime law," Japan Whaling Association president Keiichi Nakajima said.

There was no sign of the Australian Government ship Oceanic Viking that left Fremantle on Tuesday to monitor the hunt, the protest groups said.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/whale-watch/whalers-on-the-run-as-greenpeace-gives-chase/2008/01/13/1199988656212.html

Japanese whalers warn Greenpeace
January 13, 2008/SMH


The MV Esperanza in Auckland in 2007.
Photo: AFP

Japanese whalers have warned Greenpeace activists pursuing their fleet in the Southern Ocean against illegal and dangerous interference to the hunt.

The Greenpeace protest ship Esperanza has located the fleet of six ships conducting so-called scientific whaling and is pursuing the main vessel Nisshin Maru.

The Japan Whaling Association today called on Greenpeace, whose activists vow to put themselves between harpoons and whales if necessary, to keep clear of the fleet.

"Past activities of Greenpeace have been responsible for vessel collisions that risk the lives and safety of our researchers and crew and are illegal under international maritime law," association president Keiichi Nakajima said in a statement.

"I urge Greenpeace to desist from any harassment of the research vessels and to keep a safe distance."

The Federal Government, which strongly opposes the whaling, also told the environmentalists to be mindful of personal safety.

"For the people actually at the site, on the high seas, [they] need to be very careful," Assistant Treasurer Chris Bowen told reporters.

"They need to exercise restraint because their own personal safety is at risk and the personal safety of others is at risk."

CEO of Greenpeace Australia-Pacific Steve Shallhorn said the activists would do whatever was necessary to prevent whales being killed.

"There is nothing inherently dangerous to anyone else than our boat crews who volunteer themselves ... and realise a risk is being taken.

"[We will] put ourselves between the whale and the harpoon to prevent whales being killed."

Mr Nakajima said Greenpeace's stunts were designed to raise money and reminded critics that Japan's research whaling was legal under international conventions.

Greenpeace said it had tracked the fleet by following krill, a source of whale food, and would follow the Nisshin Maru for as long as necessary.

"Instead of whaling, they are attempting to avoid Esperanza. They have not been able to do that so far. We have been able to keep up with the Maru," Mr Shallhorn told reporters in Sydney.

"As long as we are in pursuit, the ship will not be capable of whaling. If whaling does resume, we will be there to prevent whales being killed."

The Australian customs ship Oceanic Viking is still en route to the whaling area under orders from the Federal Government to carry out surveillance of the Japanese activities.

Opposition justice and border protection spokesman Christopher Pyne said a government expert had told him the former P&O cruise ship was equipped only to operate in sub-Antarctic waters.

"Ships have to have a certain capacity to be able to go into the Antarctic waters where the actual slaughter of the whales takes place," Mr Pyne said.

Home Affairs Minister Bob Debus rejected the claim. "The Oceanic Viking is totally capable of sailing in the area of operation that's required to monitor the Japanese fleet and there has never been any suggestion otherwise," a spokeswoman said.

Mr Pyne called Mr Debus's response a lawyer's answer which didn't clarify the matter

http://www.smh.com.au/news/whale-watch/japanese-whalers-warn-greenpeace/2008/01/12/1199988652453.html

Same old greenpoop crap.

Same old cjhsa crap. :wink:

Beautiful, Stradee!


(Just as well there are some exquisite moments like this for those folk with GreenPeace & Sea Shepherd, hey? :wink: There must be some incredibly frightening & depressing moments out there, doing the work they do.)

A curious situation. Does the new Rudd government really want to monitor Japanese whaling activities in the Southern Ocean (for a legal challenge), or not? First, the surveillance ship didn't leave for the Southern Ocean when the government said it would & was delayed for something like two weeks. Then GreenPeace's Esperanza found the whaling ships before the Ocean Viking (govt's hired ship) did, offered assistance them assistance and ........ :

Govt 'should welcome' Greenpeace help to monitor whaling
Posted 2 hours 51 minutes ago/ABC NEWS online


Greenpeace says after its ship found the Japanese fleet, it tried to contact the Government surveillance ship, the Oceanic Viking (above), but the call was refused. (File photo) (ABC: James Bennett)

The (Australian) Federal Opposition says the Government should not be refusing help from Greenpeace to find Japanese whalers in the Southern Ocean.

Greenpeace says after its ship, the Esperanza, found the Japanese fleet yesterday, it tried to contact the Government surveillance ship, the Oceanic Viking, but the call was refused.

The Opposition's environment spokesman Greg Hunt says the Government should welcome the help.

"It's a bizarre situation where Greenpeace is trying to provide the Australian Government with information as to the whereabouts of the Japanese whaling fleet," he said.

"And the ship is being prevented, by its masters in Canberra, from receiving that information."

Mr Hunt says it shows the Government is not serious about monitoring the whaling activity.

"Greenpeace is doing the right thing. They're trying to put the Government in charge of the process, and instead, Greenpeace is being abandoned at sea, just as the whales are being abandoned," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/13/2137390.htm

Interesting site. Lots of interesting links, too.:

Diary: Jonah and the whale-chasers :
The BBC's Jonah Fisher is on the Greenpeace ship Esperanza, tracking the Japanese whaling fleet in the Southern Ocean. You can follow his travels over two months on the Ten O'clock News, and in this diary.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7171409.stm

Fearless motivation :wink:

Attempting peacefully to alter the conciousness of exploiters a tough gig, but the good news is - there's a rainbow hovering nearby. :wink:

I do hope you're right, Stradee!

On all our news bulletins in Oz tonight:



Court rules Japan whalers breaking Aust law
Posted 5 hours 56 minutes ago
Updated 3 hours 33 minutes ago/ABC NEWS online


The Humane Society International argued that Japanese whalers have broken the law by killing more than 1,200 minke whales. (File photo) (AFP: Greenpeace/Kate Davison)

The (Australian) Federal Court has ruled that the Japanese whaling fleet is breaking Australian law, and has issued an injunction to stop its activities.

The court says it is satisfied that the Japanese whaling fleet, controlled by Japanese company Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha, has contravened numerous sections of the Environment Protection Act by killing and injuring Antarctic minke and fin whales in the Australian whale sanctuary.

It has ordered that it be restrained from continuing whaling.

Justice James Allsop says the whaling illegal under Australian environment law which established the sanctuary, and it is done without the Government permission required in the exclusive economic zone.

He says that Australia has jurisdiction in the exclusive economic zone attached to the Antarctic territories, but he noted that Japan does not recognise Australia's Antarctic claim.

Most countries do not recognise the Australian Antarctic claim, which establishes that jurisdiction and Justice Allsop says the claimant, Humane Society International, recognises that there is no practical way for the order to be enforced.

But a representative for the Humane Society, Nicola Beynon, says enforcement is possible.

"The Government has a ship going down to observe the hunt," she said.

"Now that the Federal Court has ordered an injunction that the hunt be stopped, we would expect to issue the ship with the job of doing that."

Federal Environment Minister Peter Garrett says he is still considering the decision but says the Government will ensure the law is followed.

"We will have an adequate and comprehensive monitoring in place," Mr Garrett said.

"It will enable us to have every good opportunity to take material and information in the event that we are able to take a case forward, which is what our intention is."

Foreign Affairs Minister Stephen Smith says he is yet to read the decision and will not say whether it is likely to affect Australia's relationship with Japan.

"One of the things that the Government has done in terms of its efforts to bring about an end to Japanese whaling in the Southern Ocean, was to formally withdraw the previous government's advice to the Federal Court in respect of the Humane Society case," he said.

"But in the first instance, I'll leave that to my colleague Robert McClelland, the Attorney-General."

The Federal Opposition's environment spokesman Greg Hunt has told Sky News the decision gives the Commonwealth a strong incentive to act on Japanese whaling.

"This provides the unbreakable basis for the Prime Minister to call the Japanese Prime Minister. So Mr Rudd should finally pick up the phone and call Japanese Prime Minister Fukuda and make it clear that not only do we have public support, not only do we have a moral case," he said.

Greens Senator Kerry Nettle has welcomed the Federal Court's ruling, saying the decision sets an international precedent to help stop illegal whaling.

"This now paves the way for the new Government to commence international legal action, it helps to strengthen the case for taking legal action," she said.

"The Greens for a long time have been calling on the Government to take legal action to stop the whaling and the slaughter that is occurring."

A spokesman for the Fisheries Agency of Japan, Mr Hideki Moronuki, has told the ABC he is not in a position to comment on the ruling because Australia's claim to Antarctic waters is not recognised by the international community.

He says the case is a domestic matter for Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/15/2138867.htm

Meanwhile, in the Southern Ocean ... update from yesterday.:

Greenpeace chases whalers from zone
Andrew Darby In Hobart
January 14, 2008/Sydney Morning herald

GREENPEACE has claimed a success in its Southern Ocean pursuit of the Japanese whaling factory ship Nisshin Maru, driving it out of its whaling grounds.

The pursuit ran on last night, with Nisshin Maru showing no signs of slowing as it steamed north, and away from the whalers' designated "research area" off the Antarctic coast.

The Greenpeace ship Esperanza found the Nisshin Maru on Saturday, scattering the six-ship fleet, and setting back Japan's plans to take almost 1000 whales this summer. Esperanza set off after Nisshin Maru, the factory mother ship, and the expedition leader, Karli Thomas, said that in the chase the Greenpeace ship was showing a slight edge in speed. Last night Esperanza was less than four kilometres behind the factory ship.

The activists of Sea Shepherd were still trying to catch up with the Nisshin Maru and Esperanza. Greenpeace has refused to release its position, but Paul Watson, the Sea Shepherd founder, said the fleet was about 4500 kilometres south-west of Perth. The customs ship Oceanic Viking was still a few days away from the Nisshin Maru in its mission to monitor the whaling.

The president of the Japan Whaling Association, Keiichi Nakajima, called on Greenpeace to stay away from the whalers.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/whale-watch/greenpeace-chases-whalers-from-zone/2008/01/13/1200159279321.html

Latest news is that the Japanese caught a couple pirates...

They should make them walk the plank....

A few quick updates on the run. Sea Shepherd:

01/15/2008


Japanese Whaling Fleet On the Run With Two Sea Shepherd Hostages

The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society's ship Steve Irwin is in full pursuit of five vessels of the Japanese whaling fleet including the Japanese supply vessel Oriental Bluebird.

The Japanese harpoon vessel Yushin Maru No. 2 has taken two Sea Shepherd volunteer crew members hostage. Benjamin Potts 28, an Australian citizen and Giles Lane, 35, a citizen of Great Britain are being held hostage onboard the whaling vessel. Both men were assaulted and then tied to the railings of the whaler. They were then moved and tied to the radar mast by the whalers.

Both men boarded the Yushin Maru to deliver a message to the Japanese captain that the whalers were in violation of international conservation law by targeting endangered species in an established whale sanctuary in violation of a global moratorium on commercial whaling. They also notified the captain that Australia had just passed a court ruling barring Japanese whalers from the Australian Antarctic Economic Exclusion Zone.

All of this activity has taken place in the area of 60 Degrees South and 78 Degrees East. All activity has been documented from the Sea Shepherd helicopter and the fast moving Delta vessel. The Steve Irwin has dispatched a small fast Delta boat and a helicopter to attempt to persuade the Yushin Maru No. 2 to stop and release the hostages.

Captain Paul Watson has notified the Australian Federal Police that he would like to see kidnapping charges brought against the Japanese whalers. The Australian government and the British Embassy have been informed that their citizens are being held hostage on an illegally operated Japanese whaling ship in International waters.

The Japanese factory ship Nisshin Maru has fled over 700 miles to the Northwest and is heading towards South Africa accompanied by the Greenpeace ship Esperanza. The entire whaling fleet is on the run and outside of the whaling area with the Sea Shepherd ship Steve Irwin in hot pursuit of five vessels of the Japanese fleet.

No whales have been slaughtered for the last four days and it does not look as if the whaling operations are going to begin again for another week at least, and not at all if the vessels are prevented from regrouping. The Sea Shepherd ship Steve Irwin has a good supply of fuel and can remain in the area for some time and will continue to police the illegal whaling operations by the Japanese fleet.

Sea Shepherd captain Paul Watson will turn over authority to the Australian government to enforce the court ruling against illegal whaling in the Australian Antarctic Economic Exclusion Zone upon request from the Australian government and an agreement that Australia will enforce the court's ruling to bar all Japanese whaling activities in the Australian Antarctic Territory.

http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_080115_3.html

CJ - we're on the side of Australia on that one, so please update your coordinates. Further, be advised that dolphins (including the largest dolphins, orcas) and whales are more closely related to us (homo sapiens sapiens) than some of the great apes - where brain structures and neuron communications are concerned. Killing dolphins and whales is MURDER most FOUL.

Please look into the facts, you'll find the above is true. Thanks.