How low will religion go

Years ago, I used to listen to the Reverend Ike:

http://www.revike.org/whois.asp

http://www.revike.org/

He was a hoot. He preached prosperity, but differently than what is being preached now. He made no bones about it that he liked living large. What he told people was that they had the power within themselves to accomplish something in life and live well. This was no "pie in the sky". It was more of the "Power of Positive Thinking".

Although I was not interested in his religious message, I believed that his attitude could be very helpful to people who were having difficulty making it in life.

I thought that the Reverend Ike was great!!!!

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Although I was not interested in his religious message, I believed that his attitude could be very helpful to people who were having difficulty making it in life.

I thought that the Reverend Ike was great!!!!

I think the same is true for Joel Olsteen.

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http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/laughing1.gif

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Can Catholic congregants be held liable for forcing their ministers to live under a vow of poverty under the guise of obedience to God's command?

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I, for one, am really glad to see these investigations into some of these prosperity gospel preachers. While it is true the Bible says God wants us to have life and life more abundantly, I have a really hard time believing he meant monetarily. There are too many scriptures that speak in direct opposition to the prosperity gospel.

I am probably one of the biggest speakers against Benny Hinn. I was watching him the night he told the audience Jesus was going to appear on his stage and he was going to videotape it. I haven't watched him since.

I feel for the people that send in money expecting blessings. I think it's great they want to help a ministry but giving to one shouldn't be done with the intent of receiving something in return.

I may not agree with Catholicism but what puzzles me is they are a very rich church yet I have never heard the prosperity gospel come from them. Perhaps some other denominations should take note of that?

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I have to wonder....

People who give money to these churches/evangelists....if they were not signing checks over to them, wouldn't it be likely they would be sending their grocery money to someone else they hear on the TV, radio, or through other communication?

It's not so much the religious aspect I wonder about, but the fact so many people are so gullible, it's as if they are actually seeking out ways to get cheated out of their money.

I suppose the problem is some people get more upset at this because the name of God is envoked. However, it could just as well be a investment scam...bogus health potions, etc.

The question for me is not so much that they gave their money to a televangelist, but that they so willingly gave up the option to figure out for themselves if it made any sense.

Anyone can look at a Bible, for instance and read that God doesn't promise material riches.
Anyone can investigate a real estate deal and find out if the land in question is in a swamp.

It's true, there's a sucker born every minute.

If some suckers money was going to a televangelist, it'd be getting sent to someone promising a flatter stomach in 10 days.

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Hucksters of all flavors and stripes have no shame.

I don't see much difference between any hucksters, whether they are religious hucksters (listed above), environmental hucksters (Gore et al), or political hucksters (Bush, Clinton et al).

They all deserve to be laughed out of public life.

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Don't mess around with Jim. Cool

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Hucksters exist because people empower them to exist. They are a reflection of the fact that a portion of society is easily fooled.

The larger the portion of society easily fooled, the more hucksters to exploit them.

The more educated people are, the harder they are to fool. So if you're a huckster and you want to plant the seeds of future fools, you start young and in primary education. You start with the corruption of critical thinking skills in science, by pushing "Creationism", "ID" and "Teach the Controversy" into the classroom.

The fact that we have bad presidents and bad congress people is a reflection of bad decision making skills within the population. Our education system has been under siege for years (and it still is). We see the effects today.

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It is not religion that is low. It is the low lifes that con people in the name of religion that are low. Unfortunately, there are many gullible and desperate people who fall for these television scams. It hurts those who are actually trying to do good in the name of religion.

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Some of the most 'educated' people are also some of the biggest hucksters (and victims of same also).

Your faith in education to keep people from making bad judgements will doom you to disappointment.

People are easily fooled, not because they are unintelligent, but most often because they have character flaws such as greed and laziness that are easy to exploit.

Education does little to address the problem of wanting something for nothing. It is a moral issue, not an educational one.

Ros seems to want to blame belief in creation for all the ills of the world.

Let's remind ourselves that it is not creationists that have had control of the public schools for the past few decades. It is the evolutionists.

But ros' attempt to fool people into shifting the blame is bound to succeed with some who want an easy answer, and no responsibility for themselves.

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real life wrote:

Can Catholic congregants be held liable for forcing their ministers to live under a vow of poverty under the guise of obedience to God's command?

Vow of poverty? Have you ever seen how cardinals and bishops live?

It's the nuns who get screwed (no pun intended). They have to depend on contributions or the ability of their order to bring in money for their retirement, unless they belong to a dioceses.

The Catholic Church is a very large organization to it presents many faces. There is a big difference between the pomp and luxury the leaders live under versus the little parish priest in Africa trying to save lives.

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real life wrote:

Some of the most 'educated' people are also some of the biggest hucksters (and victims of same also).

Some, but not most.

real life wrote:

Your faith in education to keep people from making bad judgements will doom you to disappointment.

You have a pretty pessimistic attitude about humanity. Should we gather from your statement that you think education has no affect on people's judgement? Or are you suggesting that less education will actually improve judgement.

real life wrote:

People are easily fooled, not because they are unintelligent, but most often because they have character flaws such as greed and laziness that are easy to exploit.

There's a difference between intelligence and education. And since character flaws are always going to be there no matter what we do, improving education should only help.

real life wrote:

Education does little to address the problem of wanting something for nothing. It is a moral issue, not an educational one.

Wanting is an emotional state. People will always want. And it's natural to want as much as you can get for as little as you have to do to get it. That's called efficiency. The question is how well people learn to balance their wants against reality, and how their efforts affect the society around them. So it's both a moral issue, and an educational one.

real life wrote:

Ros seems to want to blame belief in creation for all the ills of the world.

Well, not "all the ills of the world". I'm sure there are some ills which we can blame on other aspects of religion Smile

But idiotic literalist creationism sure is an easy target. Very hard to pass up. Wink

real life wrote:

Let's remind ourselves that it is not creationists that have had control of the public schools for the past few decades. It is the evolutionists.

With the creationists lurking around in the background hindering progress in science class, and undermining the US constitution at every turn.

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R.L.

Quote:

Can Catholic congregants be held liable for forcing their ministers to live under a vow of poverty under the guise of obedience to God's command

Priests don't take a vow of poverty, some monks and nun orders do. Is there ANY area of knowledge where you can't embarrass yourself with your ignorance? Hey we are all still waiting on the other thread for you to answer those questions on the conservation laws I asked you almost a month ago now. Amazing you know how the conservation laws acted at the big bang (even though you don't believe one took place), but can't even NAME them. The same way you know that priests are FORCED to take a vow of poverty!!!

ROFLMAO Laughing

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TheCorrectResponse wrote:

R.L.

Quote:

Can Catholic congregants be held liable for forcing their ministers to live under a vow of poverty under the guise of obedience to God's command

Priests don't take a vow of poverty, some monks and nun orders do. Is there ANY area of knowledge where you can't embarrass yourself with your ignorance? Hey we are all still waiting on the other thread for you to answer those questions on the conservation laws I asked you almost a month ago now. Amazing you know how the conservation laws acted at the big bang (even though you don't believe one took place), but can't even NAME them. The same way you know that priests are FORCED to take a vow of poverty!!!

ROFLMAO

You obviously can't spot sarcasm when it's straight in front of you.

Of course no one FORCES a Catholic minister to take a vow of poverty.

And no one FORCES those who donate to the Pentecostal preachers (who were the subject of the article) to do so either.

Both do so of their own free will.

That's my point.

Lighten up TCR and perhaps humor won't be so difficult for you to deal with. Cool

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
Some of the most 'educated' people are also some of the biggest hucksters (and victims of same also).

Some, but not most.

Correct.

The same is true of those with lesser education (those you tried to broadbrush as 'easily fooled').

Some, not most of them, can be fooled.

rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
Your faith in education to keep people from making bad judgements will doom you to disappointment.

You have a pretty pessimistic attitude about humanity. Should we gather from your statement that you think education has no affect on people's judgement? Or are you suggesting that less education will actually improve judgement.

No, it's just realistic.

Education doesn't make folks honest.

If they are greedy or lazy, then they will be easy prey for hucksters, no matter their education level.

rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
People are easily fooled, not because they are unintelligent, but most often because they have character flaws such as greed and laziness that are easy to exploit.

There's a difference between intelligence and education. And since character flaws are always going to be there no matter what we do, improving education should only help.

I'd rather encounter an honest fool than an evil genius.

rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
Education does little to address the problem of wanting something for nothing. It is a moral issue, not an educational one.

Wanting is an emotional state. People will always want. And it's natural to want as much as you can get for as little as you have to do to get it. That's called efficiency. The question is how well people learn to balance their wants against reality, and how their efforts affect the society around them. So it's both a moral issue, and an educational one.

If 'it's natural' as you say, then why should we restrain what comes naturally?

rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
Ros seems to want to blame belief in creation for all the ills of the world.

Well, not "all the ills of the world". I'm sure there are some ills which we can blame on other aspects of religion But idiotic literalist creationism sure is an easy target. Very hard to pass up.

Are all the ills of the world the fault of religion , in your opinion?

What of Communist China?

Which religion causes the oppression of people under an atheistic state?

rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
Let's remind ourselves that it is not creationists that have had control of the public schools for the past few decades. It is the evolutionists.

With the creationists lurking around in the background hindering progress in science class, and undermining the US constitution at every turn.

You are bemoaning the fact that the populace is ill trained in science, logic and use of good judgement.

Yet it is your group (evolutionists) who have been at the helm for decades.

By your own admission, creationists have had very little success in having any influence in government schools.

Therefore, the responsibility for the status quo is yours.

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This is just one of the saddest Things and Really pisses me off...

These "Churches" Are Scammers and are taking advantage of Mentally Weak Individuals in need of a crutch...these People are In trouble and Need to beleive in SOMETHING...theirs nothing wrong with that but these ******* preachers come across and Take your money for THEMSELVES and these people are left Without their Money,Without their Hope and Just without...

This is one of the most horrible Things in my opinion....All these ******* fake ass "Churches" Should be Shut the **** down.

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rl

Quote:

You are bemoaning the fact that the populace is ill trained in science, logic and use of good judgement.

Yet it is your group (evolutionists) who have been at the helm for decades.

By your own admission, creationists have had very little success in having any influence in government schools.

Therefore, the responsibility for the status quo is yours.

Evolution is but one area of curriculum and it doesnt follow that EVOLUTIONISTS are responsible for the inabilaty for kids to read at a third grade level. Obviously evolution and understanding of science presumes some degree of literacy. As for the schools being "under the control of evolutionists" Thats just a bullshit statement for which you are famous there RL. We wont go into the fact that teching evolution had to be legislated away from the fundamentalist school systems as late as the 1980's. Its more a problem that weve wasted the first 3/4 of the 20th century on doctrines of "special creation" or "Scientific Creation" or "The Flood geology" crap that kids in Butthole Kansas dont even know about genetics or Earth CSience .
Yet we still have some yahoos spending 26 million bucks building a animatronic display of triceratops with saddles on em to coincide with the no evidence "science view" of this tiny but vocal group of citizens whose votes count just as much as anyone with a nondenominational education.

As far as taking action against the $$ temples, we can never protect everyone against themselves, if they are so determined to just piss away their money on these preachers who "deal spiritual and financial riches" as part of their theology. Im more amazed at the control that the GOP has been placed under by many of these fakes. My dad was an Eisenhower republican and the party's platform actually made sense when I was a little kid. Today, theyve adopted such a litmus test of "true believers" shepherded , in part, by a bunch of these "Crystal Cathedral Types"

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farmerman wrote:

rl
Quote:
You are bemoaning the fact that the populace is ill trained in science, logic and use of good judgement.

Yet it is your group (evolutionists) who have been at the helm for decades.

By your own admission, creationists have had very little success in having any influence in government schools.

Therefore, the responsibility for the status quo is yours.

Evolution is but one area of curriculum and it doesnt follow that EVOLUTIONISTS are responsible for the inabilaty for kids to read at a third grade level. Obviously evolution and understanding of science presumes some degree of literacy.

Christians have been busy pulling their kids OUT of public schools and utilizing alternatives like private Christian schools and homeschooling for the past few decades (where the kids score HIGHER on science for the ACT/SAT than the national average).

PC Liberals who have been busy introducing the elementary schools to things like Early Sex Education, Self Esteem programs, psychologists in the schools , Nobody Loses sports and games, censorship of student creative writing and sexual predators masquerading as teachers are but a few of the reasons for it.

Perhaps if schools were interested in reading then teachers unions would support things that would produce same. But they generally don't and it's quite a stretch for you to try to blame it on Christians.

farmerman wrote:

As for the schools being "under the control of evolutionists" Thats just a bullshit statement for which you are famous there RL. We wont go into the fact that teching evolution had to be legislated away from the fundamentalist school systems as late as the 1980's.

The last few places where creation MIGHT have been tolerated or taught were affected by this. Most government school systems have taught evolution for many decades and you know it as well as I.

If you aren't happy with scientific aptitude, you should look to your own group to blame.

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How low will religion go

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