Diest TKO wrote:At least I can prove the road cone is real, cigar man. :wink:
That's right. See, that's not a sad life.
The sad life is putting equal merit into superstition and myth with cold hard fact.
So when I say I can prove the road cone is real, you just get stuck because you can't do the same thing.
That is what is sad.
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Diest TKO wrote:The sad life is putting equal merit into superstition and myth with cold hard fact.
So when I say I can prove the road cone is real, you just get stuck because you can't do the same thing.
That is what is sad.
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No, I can prove the road cone is real, just as you can.
The difference is I also have faith, which you either don't have, or aren't looking for. You go right on thinking you are superior because of your disbelief. Besides your road cones, that's all you have at this point.
I don't need the road cone. Go ahead and take it away. Are you ready to let go of your childish things?
I don't imagine you are.
Just like I know you aren't ready to prove your god exists.
Of all the reasons I might choose to believe myself superior to you Tico, your "faith" falls pretty low on the list.
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Diest TKO wrote:Of all the reasons I might choose to believe myself superior to you Tico, your "faith" falls pretty low on the list.
Let me guess .... your many years representing your school at NACURH is up near the top.
I'd start with your intellect and compassion or more accurately your lack there of the both.
As for NACURH, I had not thought about that. Having given pause for a moment, I do realize how I have become more exposed to diverse community issues from my involvement with it. I can feel pretty good about that. I just returned today from a retreat in St. Louis with some subregional schools, and I was publically praised for helping teach boardroom skills to the region and nation.
I suppose that experience should fall somewhere in the list.
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Diest TKO wrote:I'd start with your intellect and compassion or more accurately your lack there of the both.
You can't spell but every fifth word you type, and you deign speak ill of my intellect.
(For those following along at home, "NACURH" stands for "National Association of College and University Residence Halls." Boyo is understandably proud of his years of service in representing his college before this national residence hall organization.)
And why shouldn't you be? I'm sure it's the most impressive thing on your resume.
When you pray to orange traffic cones, and your membership in a national residence hall organization is your proudest accomplishment ... no, that's not sad.
Nice. And Christian, too.
You can critque me all day, I've been through worse. It still won't prove God exists. You're pathetic. Your shallow attempts to derail discussion and dodge questions by attacking people only serve to illustrate how bankrupt your beliefs are. THAT is what is sad.
You're a dime a dozen Tico. I'm hardly impressed.
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P.s. - I'd actually rate my engineering software experience as the best thing on my resume.
Diest TKO wrote:real life wrote:Diest TKO wrote:real life wrote:Diest TKO wrote:My point remains. no matter what was said, there was no responce.
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My point remains as I stated:
Under what conditions does the God of the Bible say that He will answer prayer?
Are you sure you meet those conditions?
I'm not concerned with any such conditions, and your point does not stand. Such conditions mean nothing.
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The God of the Bible specifically tells us under what conditions He will hear and answer prayer.
You said that there was no response (answer) when you prayed.
Of course it's relevant.
And since you seem to know these conditions, I'm sure you'd be able to provide them so I could evaluate if they are valid.
You won't take my word for it. You don't trust me.
Look it up yourself.
Then maybe you can explain on what basis you will decide if they are valid.
Will it be simply your opinion, or will you use an experimental approach?
real life wrote:Diest TKO wrote:real life wrote:Diest TKO wrote:real life wrote:Diest TKO wrote:My point remains. no matter what was said, there was no responce.
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My point remains as I stated:
Under what conditions does the God of the Bible say that He will answer prayer?
Are you sure you meet those conditions?
I'm not concerned with any such conditions, and your point does not stand. Such conditions mean nothing.
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The God of the Bible specifically tells us under what conditions He will hear and answer prayer.
You said that there was no response (answer) when you prayed.
Of course it's relevant.
And since you seem to know these conditions, I'm sure you'd be able to provide them so I could evaluate if they are valid.
You won't take my word for it. You don't trust me.
Look it up yourself.
Then maybe you can explain on what basis you will decide if they are valid.
Will it be simply your opinion, or will you use an experimental approach?
You're putting the cart before the horse RL.
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Diest TKO wrote:real life wrote:Diest TKO wrote:real life wrote:Diest TKO wrote:real life wrote:Diest TKO wrote:My point remains. no matter what was said, there was no responce.
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My point remains as I stated:
Under what conditions does the God of the Bible say that He will answer prayer?
Are you sure you meet those conditions?
I'm not concerned with any such conditions, and your point does not stand. Such conditions mean nothing.
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The God of the Bible specifically tells us under what conditions He will hear and answer prayer.
You said that there was no response (answer) when you prayed.
Of course it's relevant.
And since you seem to know these conditions, I'm sure you'd be able to provide them so I could evaluate if they are valid.
You won't take my word for it. You don't trust me.
Look it up yourself.
Then maybe you can explain on what basis you will decide if they are valid.
Will it be simply your opinion, or will you use an experimental approach?
You're putting the cart before the horse RL.
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What is wrong with an experimental approach?
Would it not be more productive than simply stating an opinion?
You want to find out if prayer works? It's a simple experiment that anyone can do.
--- Find out under what conditions the God of the Bible says He will answer prayer.
--- Make sure you meet those conditions.
--- Pray.
I have no problem with an experimental approach, but for it to be conclusive I need a sample N, where is much greater than 1.
So...
1) Post the conditions which you claim are required.
2) Then I'll find examples of people who both adhere or violate the said conditions.
3) Then I'll evaluate the if your assertion is valid.
Horse in front of cart.
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Real Life, the least you could do in this matter is point to where in the Bible these conditions can be found. Deist isn't asking you to do the experiment, just point to the conditions under which you would consider said experiment to be valid.
Diest TKO wrote:I have no problem with an experimental approach, but for it to be conclusive I need a sample N, where is much greater than 1.
So...
1) Post the conditions which you claim are required.
2) Then I'll find examples of people who both adhere or violate the said conditions.
3) Then I'll evaluate the if your assertion is valid.
Horse in front of cart.
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I am not suggesting that you assemble any group of people whatsoever, nor gather data on any others.
Real Life,you proposed an experiment. In order for an experiment to be valid, it requires a significant number of subjects be tested so that the results can rightfully be attributed to the experimental variable and not to differences in subjects or random chance. This is basic science; I know you've shown a great misunderstanding of how it works in the past, but I didn't realize that your education on the subject was that lacking.
Also, you still haven't provided info on where proper prayer procedure can be found in the bible; I'm really looking forward to seeing exactly what requirements the benevolent, all powerful deity you claim exists places on crys for help.
I haven't proposed any 'scientific' study of prayer, nor will I.
Aside from the absurd notion that 'natural' evidence of the 'supernatural' can be observed, the proposition entails a number of logistical problems which make any such venture an exercise in futility.
There has never been, nor will be IMHO , a 'scientific' study of prayer. Those who propose it betray their lack of understanding of the nature of the subject.
Even the simplest 'scientific' study requires standardization.
For instance, if one were to propose a study of prayer for the sick, you have two groups ( the sick subjects and the pray-ers) that you must achieve some degree of standardization in assembling, else your results are simply subjective opinions superimposed upon data.
For the sick subjects, a sufficient number of patients with the same malady (not just in general , but specifically) at the same stage, experiencing the same symptoms, whose health otherwise is quite comparable, similar in age, undergoing the EXACT same medical regimen , etc.
For the pray-ers, first you must decide what type of pray-er you are going to study ( Muslim pray-ers?, Jewish pray-ers?, Christian pray-ers? , each with it's own subset or 'denomination' or 'sect'). Once you know what type of pray-er your group will be , then you must make sure that all of your group meets the same criteria. Do they believe the same things in regard to prayer for the sick? (You would be very surprised at the wide variance in belief, even among persons attending the same congregation of most Christian churches, for example). After that, do each of the pray-ers meet the criteria for answered prayer, as we have briefly discussed before. And of course, the practice of pray-er (the actual praying) must be standardized among the pray-ers. Are they all praying the same thing, the same number of times, and in the same manner, etc?
Also data needs to be available regarding pray-ers outside the study who may affect the outcome -- friends, family , church members, etc.
If you think all of these can be adequately addressed, you have greater faith than I do.
Several studies , purported to be 'scientific' , have been published in the past and have signally failed to address, or even indicate awareness of most of these issues.
What I proposed was much simpler, something any individual can do, if he wishes to know 'if prayer works'.
Quote:Will it be simply your opinion, or will you use an experimental approach?
You did say that, and since we wouldn't want to settle a matter as important as this based on "simply opinion", we'll opt for the experimental approach.
