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Politics and framing the issue

 
 
coberst
 
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2007 06:17 am
but our culture has framed the market as a force of nature not to be messed with, a common ideological practice. This fact never becomes an issue because the frame does not include it.

A similar thing happens with education. Education is framed in economic terms and market forces.Any kind of action becomes justified by war; terrorism creates terror that permits easy manipulation of the population by government.
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Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2007 02:32 pm
coberst wrote:
Education is framed in economic terms and market forces.


If you are correct, then probably the most effective way of counteracting these frames is for us to stop using them. After all, it wouldn't be difficult to demonstrate how poorly they account for the statistical realities of post-graduate education of the last several decades. It may be that these "frames" persist so doggedly because they are useful to those who are determined to reprimand "society" (whatever that means) for its failings--even when the reprimanders are the very people "exposing" the frames. It's a classic case of the Messianic dilemma: if one has made it one's mission to call for change, then one is likely to ignore signs that things actually are changing because then one would be out of a job.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2007 09:05 pm
Frames are part of everyday life. A paradigm is a frame. A point of view is based upon a frame, or may be a frame in itself.

Bravery to one looks like stupidity to another. Confidence to one can be arrogance to another. Loyalty to one looks like naievity to another. It all just depends on the frame.
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coberst
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:14 am
Shapeless wrote:
coberst wrote:
Education is framed in economic terms and market forces.


If you are correct, then probably the most effective way of counteracting these frames is for us to stop using them. After all, it wouldn't be difficult to demonstrate how poorly they account for the statistical realities of post-graduate education of the last several decades. It may be that these "frames" persist so doggedly because they are useful to those who are determined to reprimand "society" (whatever that means) for its failings--even when the reprimanders are the very people "exposing" the frames. It's a classic case of the Messianic dilemma: if one has made it one's mission to call for change, then one is likely to ignore signs that things actually are changing because then one would be out of a job.


Education as economics is of value and it makes sense for young people to get an education so that they can get good jobs. If we comprehend that fact then perhaps we can have our cake and eat it also.

If our comprehension of this reality leads us to recognize that our learning must not end when our schooling is finished we can do the learning as adults that was missed in our schooling. Our adults today seem to wrap their intellects with their yearbook and store both in the attic. Adults must recognize the deficiency in their education and make up for it by becoming self-actualizing self-learners.
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coberst
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:19 am
vikorr wrote:
Frames are part of everyday life. A paradigm is a frame. A point of view is based upon a frame, or may be a frame in itself.

Bravery to one looks like stupidity to another. Confidence to one can be arrogance to another. Loyalty to one looks like naievity to another. It all just depends on the frame.



You are correct. However, the problem is that people seldom recognize the ability to manipulate that is hidden within these frames. Framing the issue can be propaganda when people fail to comprehend these important matters. Making everyone conscious of the nature of framing the issue is very important for the health of a democracy.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:56 am
Quote:
You are correct. However, the problem is that people seldom recognize the ability to manipulate that is hidden within these frames.


This is an interesting point, because I see it as being both wrong and right. People do recognise the ability to manipulate that is hidden within frames, because they use frames to support their arguments (against the person with whom they are arguing / trying to persuade) knowing that the other person will see things different (ie have a different frame)…BUT…people don't consciously think of it because (I'm guessing) they don't want to see themselves as manipulative.

Quote:
Making everyone conscious of the nature of framing the issue is very important for the health of a democracy.

People know, on some level, but they don't want to think about it…it's more effort, it's non conformist, and it's uncomfortable…so they don't develop the skill of seeing their frames.

Of course, I just made all that up, so feel free to say if you see differently.
0 Replies
 
coberst
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 03:05 pm
vikorr wrote:
Quote:
You are correct. However, the problem is that people seldom recognize the ability to manipulate that is hidden within these frames.


This is an interesting point, because I see it as being both wrong and right. People do recognise the ability to manipulate that is hidden within frames, because they use frames to support their arguments (against the person with whom they are arguing / trying to persuade) knowing that the other person will see things different (ie have a different frame)…BUT…people don't consciously think of it because (I'm guessing) they don't want to see themselves as manipulative.

Quote:
Making everyone conscious of the nature of framing the issue is very important for the health of a democracy.

People know, on some level, but they don't want to think about it…it's more effort, it's non conformist, and it's uncomfortable…so they don't develop the skill of seeing their frames.

Of course, I just made all that up, so feel free to say if you see differently.


People embedded within an ideology have a point of view that to them is universally true and is natural. They do not comprehend that they are using a linguistic frame. Take the pro-life church going individual. To that person the killing of a baby is not a frame but is reality. Likewise the pro-choice individual considers that the only rational way to look at the matter is from the choice view point. Ideologies are powerful because most of the individuals have the truth and the truth is whatever the truth of the ideology is.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 06:21 pm
Quote:
People embedded within an ideology have a point of view that to them is universally true and is natural.

True enough for the particular point you are making.

Quote:
They do not comprehend that they are using a linguistic frame.


Linguistics/sensory/experiential frame.

That said, in relation to the abortion issue, you have chosen an example where I think people are very well aware of their frames - they just don't care about the others frame (because theirs is so right)
0 Replies
 
SULLYFISH66
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Dec, 2007 08:35 pm
I prefer "domains" instead of "frames"

How are you? I am asked

In what domain? I ask back
Socailly, Health-wise, marriage, economically, legally, emotionally, etc.?

Until the domain is defined, I cannot even answer.

I see many parallel discussions on the same subject, but in different domains - for example the abortion issue - the domain is always argued in the religious domain. How about economics? health? population control? Emotional?
0 Replies
 
 

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