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Does intention matter in deciding who's what?

 
 
Cyracuz
 
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 01:48 am
Does intention matter when deciding the moral quality of an action?

I am sure most of us, if not all of us, will say that it does.

But think about this for a sec.

Out of all the acts committed ever, do you think there's a single one committed with bad intentions? Even Hitler thought he was doing a good thing when he tried to erase the jews.

We're not saying: Oh, that was a naughty thing to do, but he meant well, so he was not a bad person.

No, we don't say that. In many ways, Hitler is the embodiment of evil.

So why aren'treligious people treated the same? The horrors committed in the name of various gods through the ages makes what the nazis did seem like stealing candy from a rich merchant.

Why do we not see religious people as evil people, since they stand in support of the institutions that have wreaked so much havoc and shed so much blood? Does their ignorance excuse them?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 04:02 am
Because "religion" has a tribal function it is consequently devisive and potentially "evil" since it demotes the outsider to the category "sub-person", and thereby curtails empathy. Unfortunately this seems to be a a "natural" phenomenon whereby the tribal instinct displayed by primates has been embellished with a layer of cognitive "rationality" in humans. We wouldn't normally label a primate "evil" but we do so in the case of humans because we assume "choice" can operate. That may not be the case !
"Intentionality" to "do good" may be a palliative to ease individual consciences at a local level but the global trend continues to be religious/tribal conflict.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 04:46 am
We tend to judge ourselves by our intentions, while the rest of the world tends to judge us by our actions.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 08:23 am
If it may be the case that choice cannot operate, then intent and questions of maorality become irrelevant, do they not? These are all aspects revolving around the choice of an action...
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 08:26 am
Re: Does intention matter in deciding who's what?
Cyracuz wrote:
Does intention matter when deciding the moral quality of an action?

I am sure most of us, if not all of us, will say that it does.

But think about this for a sec.

Out of all the acts committed ever, do you think there's a single one committed with bad intentions? Even Hitler thought he was doing a good thing when he tried to erase the jews.

We're not saying: Oh, that was a naughty thing to do, but he meant well, so he was not a bad person.

No, we don't say that. In many ways, Hitler is the embodiment of evil.

So why aren'treligious people treated the same? The horrors committed in the name of various gods through the ages makes what the nazis did seem like stealing candy from a rich merchant.

Why do we not see religious people as evil people, since they stand in support of the institutions that have wreaked so much havoc and shed so much blood? Does their ignorance excuse them?


Just as we do not say that all Germans are the embodiment of evil for what Hitler did.

If you must judge....judge the individual.....not the organization.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 08:41 am
That's well and good, intrepid, but then the individuals hide behind the organization, and you're back at square one.

If an individual has an organization at his back that supports his wicked ways, or even allows him to wrongfully assume this support, then isn't there something wrong with the organization?

Btw, I do not have all the answers here. I am not arguing one side of this. I seek to understand, and so I challenge the different viewpoints. But I do have it in for organized religion lately...
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Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:03 am
Re: Does intention matter in deciding who's what?
Cyracuz wrote:

So why aren'treligious people treated the same? The horrors committed in the name of various gods through the ages makes what the nazis did seem like stealing candy from a rich merchant.

Why do we not see religious people as evil people, since they stand in support of the institutions that have wreaked so much havoc and shed so much blood?


The same way we don't treat Germans as though they were nazis I suppose. A country is an institution the same way the church is.
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George
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:10 am
Cyracuz wrote:
...But I do have it in for organized religion lately...

Do you have it in for organized sports as well?
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Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:12 am
Sports hooligans are usually religious.

Potato potatoe or however you say that in writing...
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:21 am
Quote:
The same way we don't treat Germans as though they were nazis I suppose. A country is an institution the same way the church is.


Yes, but a country isn't run according to a set of beliefs taken for god's law, penned by who knows who, thousands of years ago.

And there was a great deal of enimity towards germans in the years after ww2.
And we often hear tales, a lot from the US, about individuals who were treated as terrorists just because they were arabs.

So who's "we" in this context?
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:23 am
Cyracuz wrote:
That's well and good, intrepid, but then the individuals hide behind the organization, and you're back at square one.

If an individual has an organization at his back that supports his wicked ways, or even allows him to wrongfully assume this support, then isn't there something wrong with the organization?

Btw, I do not have all the answers here. I am not arguing one side of this. I seek to understand, and so I challenge the different viewpoints. But I do have it in for organized religion lately...


My intention is not to argue at all, but to propose a different viewpoint.

You are assuming, by this post, that the wicked organizer has support for ALL of those in the organization, or in Hitler's case...the German people.

This is simply not true. This is too general and does not account for those in a group that do not condone or follow that which is evil or bad.

The fact that you "have it in for organized religion" puts you in a category that finds fault with EVERYONE in the organization. This is simply not fair.

Again, I am not arguing a point...just giving my humble opinion.
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Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 10:37 am
Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
The same way we don't treat Germans as though they were nazis I suppose. A country is an institution the same way the church is.


Yes, but a country isn't run according to a set of beliefs taken for god's law, penned by who knows who, thousands of years ago.

And there was a great deal of enimity towards germans in the years after ww2.
And we often hear tales, a lot from the US, about individuals who were treated as terrorists just because they were arabs.

So who's "we" in this context?


First off; the church has changed since the crusades. I'm not in any way defending the church, but it has come a long way(maybe not long enough) since the dark ages.

The hostility you describe towards germans after WWII and towards arabs is just good 'ol fashioned prejudice, I don't really see your point. Maybe you can elaborate.

As for your original post, I think there is a lot of grey in between the black and white you describe.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 12:55 pm
Intrepid and coolwhip.

I think your objections to my stance are reasonable.

I realize, of course, that there are good people among those who worship god through organized religion, and also that the church has indeed changed since the crusades. Smile

And also, I agree that there are more shades of grey between my black and white than I am admitting in this thread.

Still, there are organized factions of christianity that seek to hinder the spreading of scientific knowledge. They want evolution theory out of the schools, for instance. These people see in black and white. There are missionaries, preachers threatening with hell for all non-believers and who knows what.

I know that if I was a christian, I would speak out against all those giving my religion a bad reputation. But I really don't see much of that from any of those who are religious. But is it their responsibility?

Is it the muslims's collective responsibility to do what they can to stop those that would use islam as an excuse for murder?
Is it the sensible christian community's collective responsibility to deal with all the crazy fundamentalists? Those people who stand on the street with posters reading "thank god for aids" and "god hates fags", for instance.
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Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 01:11 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
I know that if I was a christian, I would speak out against all those giving my religion a bad reputation. But I really don't see much of that from any of those who are religious. But is it their responsibility?

Is it the muslims's collective responsibility to do what they can to stop those that would use islam as an excuse for murder?
Is it the sensible christian community's collective responsibility to deal with all the crazy fundamentalists? Those people who stand on the street with posters reading "thank god for aids" and "god hates fags", for instance.


Thats a good point, but a different topic enirely. Maybe you should start it Smile
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George
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 01:11 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
...I know that if I was a christian, I would speak out against all those giving my religion a bad reputation. But I really don't see much of that from any of those who are religious. But is it their responsibility?...

Well, good for you!
I will take the challenge.

Shame on you, bad Christians! Shame!

I feel so righteous now.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 01:16 pm
Good one george. Smile
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 01:28 pm
In my opinion, the only way to combat "bad Christianity" is to put forth what real Christianity is about.

I think the real problem just might be that many honestly don't seem to know what a real Christian is. They seem to have their viewpoint of what one is but it's clear to me they just don't know.
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Ashers
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 08:14 pm
What does it mean to be a real Christian? Who decides this? Trying to be a real *insert relevant conception here*, be that Buddhist, Christian or Muslim, strikes me as an exercise in lifeless, imitation. Ideals, persona's, rules and pointers are helpful of course but they can be very harmful.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 08:50 pm
Jesus reportedly gave this characteristic of 'real' Christians at John 13;35 "By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves."

By this one standard the majority of religions fall crumbled into dust.
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vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 09:55 pm
Quote:
Out of all the acts committed ever, do you think there's a single one committed with bad intentions? Even Hitler thought he was doing a good thing when he tried to erase the jews.


We all have positive hopes for the future. Intentions are a fuzzy matter, because while they are usually phrased in a positive light (of what is hoped for) they can involve a great deal of self deception.
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