Axiom(s) relating to belief in God.

I propose a single axiom:
(I would be most interested if any find weakness in this.)

All things have come about through the operation of natural laws, including those we have yet to discover.

nat·u·ral·ism
3. Philosophy - The system of thought holding that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws.

good and evil have no relevance to existing natural laws, but i'm sure(?) neo believes we will find such natural laws at some time.

perhaps he's right- of course as usual however, we probably wouldn't agree on the implications. and i think we're a longer way off than he probably imagines.

neologist wrote:

I propose a single axiom:
(I would be most interested if any find weakness in this.)

All things have come about through the operation of natural laws, including those we have yet to discover.

That's pretty much the definition of Naturalism...

rosborne979 wrote:

neologist wrote:

I propose a single axiom:
(I would be most interested if any find weakness in this.)

All things have come about through the operation of natural laws, including those we have yet to discover.

That's pretty much the definition of Naturalism...

Thru what did the laws themselves come into being?

Also, doesn't the Law of Conservation prohibit matter/energy from coming into being?

real life wrote:

Also, doesn't the Law of Conservation prohibit matter/energy from coming into being?

Only within our Universe. We know of no such restriction outside of our Universe. (same thing I've been saying for post after post. Why are you not getting this?)

But if 'good and evil have no relevance,' how may the concepts of free will and conscience be derived from the axiom?

rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:

Also, doesn't the Law of Conservation prohibit matter/energy from coming into being?

Only within our Universe. We know of no such restriction outside of our Universe. (same thing I've been saying for post after post. Why are you not getting this?)

Maybe because you haven't shown that there IS anything outside of our Universe, but you seem to assume that it exists.

Quote:

But if 'good and evil have no relevance,' how may the concepts of free will and conscience be derived from the axiom?

we don't fully understand "free will" and "conscience" either, they are largely philosophical constructs (although materialists assume the "mind" is in the brain, perhaps citing eeg readings.) you're trying to have a philosophical debate in the realm of physics, right? it might be all directly related, but if it proves not to be, do you believe it will necessarily discount *any* of the above ideas, such as the ones we study as "natural laws?" i don't.

nor does this have anything to do with god, necessarily. or perhaps you're trying to refute materialism, but idealism doesn't require the "author" you imagine, under idealism we are all such authors.

and for that matter, we are authors in a purely materialistic universe as well, whether a god made us, or not. if a god made us, and gave us free will, we are co-authors. since there is more than one of us, we would be co-authors in any universe, except a purely deterministic one. then we would be merely books.

tinygiraffe wrote:

Quote:

But if 'good and evil have no relevance,' how may the concepts of free will and conscience be derived from the axiom?

we don't fully understand "free will" and "conscience" either, they are largely philosophical constructs (although materialists assume the "mind" is in the brain, perhaps citing eeg readings.) you're trying to have a philosophical debate in the realm of physics, right? it might be all directly related, but if it proves not to be, do you believe it will necessarily discount *any* of the above ideas, such as the ones we study as "natural laws?" i don't.

nor does this have anything to do with god, necessarily. or perhaps you're trying to refute materialism, but idealism doesn't require the "author" you imagine, under idealism we are all such authors.

and for that matter, we are authors in a purely materialistic universe as well, whether a god made us, or not. if a god made us, and gave us free will, we are co-authors. since there is more than one of us, we would be co-authors in any universe, except a purely deterministic one. then we would be merely books.

I wouldn't disallow the existence of additional axioms; but it strikes me as relevant to ask how free will could come into existence by itself.

I wouldn't disallow the existence of additional axioms; but it strikes me as relevant to ask how free will could come into existence by itself.

. . .
Why are you so obsessed with free will? . . .

Fro example, many define God as omniscient, knowing all things by necessity. This makes the concept of free will a bit problematic. For if God is subject to determinism, how could he create in humans a trait he himself does not possess?

So, I think it is relevant to ask how free will could come about in a naturalistic model.