curiousity about jw's and holidays

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i approach most things in an agnostic way. i could always be wrong, no one can be sure they're right, etc.

like most people, there are times when i still have reason to believe i'm right.

here's one that's come up at least once, birthdays.

if jw's don't want to celebrate them, fine, fine. they don't celebrate christmas either, only the death of christ.

it seems very, very odd to me that such a selfless figure could ever care whether people celebrate his birthday or not (yes, this came up after the idea that santa takes all the glory. blah.)

but they don't. they don't celebrate individual birthdays. they don't celebrate secular or other religious holidays (other than christ's death.)

but they do celebrate other things, just not holidays. and of course, i'm sure that celebrations must be done where all the glory goes to god, and that's fine i think. but if you can celebrate everything but holidays without taking glory away from god, why can't you celebrate holidays without taking glory away? and did i miss something?

it seems like the most arbitrary distinction possible, holidays vs. gratitude. that just and loving god gets ridiculously jealous sometimes. i know he said he's a jealous god, but cmon, who is he trying to kid?

"i'm a jealous god, so... hey, put that f**king cake down!"

is this one we can get god to understand, maybe? (he could just send a card.) i mean we don't have to do anything on the 25th, we can tell that old sun god to piss off. with the way we tear the ozone apart, we might be better off without him. come to think of it, perhaps we've been neglecting the ozone god... can anyone find out when his birthday is?

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Feel better now that you got that off your chest?

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tinygiraffe- Why in the world are you attempting to find some logic in something that is completely irrational? Different religions, over the years, have developed different customs as they went along.

If I decided to bay at the moon on every third Thursday of the month to glorify my god, it would be just as rational as any other religious practice.

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Maybe more so.

Joe(I think moreso should be one word.)Nation

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I could be wrong....but I think the problem for jw's is the picking of a specific date to celebrate, setting it aside as special.

If they want to give a gift, or have a celebration, it's not written in stone that it's got to be on the specific date of somone's birth, or the 3rd Thursday in November.

I can see the sense in that, in both a religious AND a non-religious context.

Look how many people get caught up in totally made up by the marketing people holidays....mothers day, fathers day, bosses day, etc. All contrived to convince people to go out and at least BUY a card.

If one wishes to honor their mother or father in a special way, I would find it more meaningful to present them with "No Special Resason, a Just I Love You" gift, rather than "well this is the day I've been dictated to that I'm supposed to do or say something that shows I love you" day.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

tinygiraffe- Why in the world are you attempting to find some logic in something that is completely irrational? Different religions, over the years, have developed different customs as they went along.

If I decided to bay at the moon on every third Thursday of the month to glorify my god, it would be just as rational as any other religious practice.

You don't do that....right? Smile

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I 'think' you'll find, that JW's don't consider most of the holidays to be Holy, because most of them, Christmas and Easter included, fall on days that were the days Pagans celebrated certain things.

Easter was a germanic celebration of the Godess Ester (there were a few different ways to spell her name), who was the Godess of fertility, with her 'symbol' being the rabbit. Each easter the tribes would run off and propogate.

Christmas was something similar, I can't remember the story behind it. And for those that don't know, April Fools day used to be christmas, until they changed it, and called anyone celebrating christmas on April 1 an April Fool.

Edit : JW's celebrate the death of Christ according to a different calender - I asked them once. I'm sure Neologist will be able to offer something more accurate.

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Feel better now that you got that off your chest?

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tinygiraffe- Why in the world are you attempting to find some logic in something that is completely irrational? Different religions, over the years, have developed different customs as they went along.

because i really do try to understand them all. i think we stand to gain at least as much from grasping religion as we do from grasping paleontological history. but also i'm particularly interested in jw's right now, neo is the most interesting person i've ever talked to about them and i'm disappointed he hasn't replied yet. i was sure he'd have some retort, and it would be a lot more interesting than i could get from most people.

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If I decided to bay at the moon on every third Thursday of the month to glorify my god, it would be just as rational as any other religious practice.

and i would probably, in time, be able to explain it to you. what's one fetish or another, if no one gets hurt? i just like learning about religion.

i admit, but it's obvious, that my incredulity is showing here, and my post was a bit... well, i could have been more serious, but i did have to get it off my chest Smile

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I could be wrong....but I think the problem for jw's is the picking of a specific date to celebrate, setting it aside as special.

thanks. i'm not sure, but that makes a lot of sense actually.

oh i like this one!

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I can see the sense in that, in both a religious AND a non-religious context.

Look how many people get caught up in totally made up by the marketing people holidays....mothers day, fathers day, bosses day, etc. All contrived to convince people to go out and at least BUY a card.

If one wishes to honor their mother or father in a special way, I would find it more meaningful to present them with "No Special Resason, a Just I Love You" gift, rather than "well this is the day I've been dictated to that I'm supposed to do or say something that shows I love you" day.

this would be part of my answer to joe, but i didn't write it.

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I 'think' you'll find, that JW's don't consider most of the holidays to be Holy, because most of them, Christmas and Easter included, fall on days that were the days Pagans celebrated certain things.

Easter was a germanic celebration of the Godess Ester (there were a few different ways to spell her name), who was the Godess of fertility, with her 'symbol' being the rabbit. Each easter the tribes would run off and propogate.

i'm already aware of that, but i wasn't asking why the don't celebrate pagan holidays. you could celebrate "christmas" or christ's birthday without any pagan trappings (or dates) and they already celebrate "3 days before easter," whatever day they actually observe it.

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And for those that don't know, April Fools day used to be christmas, until they changed it, and called anyone celebrating christmas on April 1 an April Fool.

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I'm sure Neologist will be able to offer something more accurate.

i am hoping, yes. some people might find my post offensive, but it was mainly written for him, and i was sure he'd be willing to overlook anything that was tongue-in-cheek, or even find an interesting argument to offset it with. maybe he's busy or doesn't think it important, but i can wait.

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Some people, for whatever reason, are intolerant :wink:

By the way, why was there a ?! on the April fools comment?

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i'd never heard such a thing.

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Hmmm, I remember reading it somewhere, but now that I go looking on the web, they are saying it was the moving of New Years day from April 1 to Jan 1.

http://www.funsocialstudies.learninghaven.com/edu/april-fools-day.html

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/aprilfools1.html

Yet I distinctly remember what I read to say christmas, and the links do seem to say there is some conjecture about it's actual cause. Who knows Confused

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Regarding birthdays:

A few reasons, but one I find interesting is that both times a birthday is mentioned in the bible, the celebration is accompanied by someone losing his head. (Gen. 40:20-22:, Matt. 14:6-10)

As for Christmas:

Jesus was not born on Dec. 25. The reason that date was selected likely had more to do with the timing of the pagan festival of Saturnalia. In fact, many Christmas customs were derived from that earlier celebration. Throughout the years, additional customs from other religions were added to the celebration.

As for whether it would still be OK to celebrate Christmas so long as your motives were pure, consider this illustration:

Suppose some friends of a man decide to celebrate his birthday in spite of the fact that he does not approve of such celebrations. He does not approve of overeating or drunkenness or loose conduct; yet the celebrants do all of these. On top of that, since they do not know the date of his birth, they pick the birth date of one of his enemies to celebrate. Does this do honor to the man?

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yeah but i asked why god would care. i'll read those passages you mentioned, and thanks for replying, but you make him sound petulant, as if he cares what day it is.

granted, we agree that dec. 25th is the worst day to celebrate christmas possible. but i was (trying to clarify now,) referring primarily to human birthdays, and holidays like mother's day. honor thy mother, etc... (but don't get her flowers! god hates that.) well then again, god might hate florists in general, but probably not.

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yeah but i asked why god would care

On a slight tangent - I'm not even sure why God would want to be worshiped?

I mean, when I used to go to church, I used to enjoy singing (even though I'm terrible at it), and to me that seems one of the highlights of going to church...but does God really NEED or demand worship?

I can't see why he would need nor want it, but I can understand why Humans would want and need to.

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based on everything i ever learned about religion, i'm not sure god does want to be worshipped.

there are "commands" to worship god, i'm aware of this. the "commands" do not appear to originate as commands, however. they appear to be ways to connect with god voluntarily.

to become a slave to god is to push yourself farther from his generousity, to open yourself is to be closer. if you are being commanded, you're being told to close parts of you that could help you grow closer.

worship, as most people understand it, does push god farther into the sky. being open and spiritual and trying to find god is a way of bringing him closer.

so worshiping god is idoltry, but opening yourself to god is proper worship. but then these are ideas, not commands. since idolizing god pushes him farther away, we're "commanded" not to idolize things, but these began as egyptian ideas, (or pre-egyptian ideas) because commandments would be idolizing god.

do i think god would agree with this? i have no idea. do i think he would take offense? i think it's unlikely.

a god that vengeful would have destroyed himself by now. think of "nomad" in star trek. "i am nomad! i am perfect!"

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God may not wish to be worshipped in the ritualistic ways practiced by many. But, as the creator, (and sovereign) of the universe, he certainly does not deserve to be ignored. Nor does he deserve to be 'revered' with celebrations designed for his enemies.

As for the origin of certain celebrations such as mother's day, a Google search provides much edification.

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neologist wrote:

Regarding birthdays:

A few reasons, but one I find interesting is that both times a birthday is mentioned in the bible, the celebration is accompanied by someone losing his head. (Gen. 40:20-22:, Matt. 14:6-10)

I don't see how or why this answers the question. I would be interested in a more detailed explanation as I find this very interesting.

As for Christ's birthday not actually being December 25th. I think everybody understands that this is not the date of birth. However, since we do not know the actual day (other than sometime in April has been surmized) why not have a day to celebrate it. Regardless of anything else that this day may represent or who was actually born on it.

To celebrate His death without celebrating His birth seems to negate those years that he was on this earth. IMHO

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But, as the creator, (and sovereign) of the universe, he certainly does not deserve to be ignored.

nor is he ignored.

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Nor does he deserve to be 'revered' with celebrations designed for his enemies.

and as i said, that pretty much rules out dec. 25th. however, the three magi did celebrate christ's birth, didn't they? and it's in the bible, right? were they wrong, too?

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tinygiraffe wrote:

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But, as the creator, (and sovereign) of the universe, he certainly does not deserve to be ignored.

nor is he ignored.

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Nor does he deserve to be 'revered' with celebrations designed for his enemies.

and as i said, that pretty much rules out dec. 25th. however, the three magi did celebrate christ's birth, didn't they? and it's in the bible, right? were they wrong, too?

Whoever said there were three magi? Three gifts from who knows how many?

We celebrate births as well. We also celebrate weddings and school graduations. No to mention how many get together for no reason except to get together. Though pinochle may be involved at times.

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you do? this is more and more interesting.

and look what i found, per your statement:

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Biblical Magi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... Three Wise Men ... frankincense and myrrh . Because these three gifts were recorded, it is traditionally said to have been three givers; however, Matthew does not specify how many wise men ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Wise_Men

very interesting! a new piece of trivia i'm armed with, thanks!

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curiousity about jw's and holidays

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