America Will Never Be A Secular Society

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Reproduced from USA Today: http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/10/a-christian-fou.html

A Christian foundation
Popular efforts to tuck Christianity neatly aside as a footnote to this country's history and to deliver a secular society will fail. Why? Because the faith is inextricably tied to our values, our institutions and even modern science.

By Dinesh D'Souza

We seem to be witnessing an aggressive attempt by leading atheists to portray religion in general, and Christianity in particular, as the bane of civilization. Finding the idea of God incompatible with science and reason, these atheists also fault Christianity with fostering a breed of fanaticism comparable to Islamic radicalism. The proposed solution: a completely secular society, liberated from Christian symbols and beliefs.

This critique, which comes from best-selling atheist books, academic tracts and a sophisticated network of atheist organizations and media, can be disputed on its own terms. What it misses, however, is the larger story of how Christianity has shaped the core institutions and values of the USA and the West. Christianity is responsible even for secular institutions such as democracy and science. It has fostered in our civilization values such as respect for human dignity, human rights and human equality that even secular people cherish.

Consider science. Although there have been many civilizations in history, modern science developed in only one: Western civilization. And why? Because science is based on an assumption that is, at root, faith-based and theological. That is the assumption that the universe is rational and follows laws that are discoverable through human reason.

The 'miracle' of our universe Rights and Christianity Dinesh D'Souza's new book, What's So Great About Christianity, has just been published.

Thoughts?

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I think D'Souza is taking liberties with the facts. Notice how Galileo was mentioned, despite the facte that Galileo was persecuted by the then Church for his views. And I can't help but fail to notice that a practising Alchemist, Isaac Newton, was also included in the list. Wasn't Alchemy also forbidden by the Church?

That the greatest scientists of our day happened to be Christian is no excuse to continue believing in Christianity. Those scientists also happened to be white. Does that mean we shouldn't allow people of other ethnicities to become scientists? Does that mean that only white people make good scientists?

Notice also that the greatest contributors to Western values, the Founding Fathers, those who shaped the US Constitutions, were primarily white. Sure, there was Martin Luther King, but the majority were primarily white. Does that mean only white people are responsible for the United States' propserity, for its current status? Does that mean only white people are good and decent people, responsible for a good decent American society?

His argument is ridiculous.

Yes, Christianity should not be hacked away. But the argument he makes is far too simplistic and most likely wrong.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd also like to point out that the majority of prisoners in the US are also Christian. If we use D'Souza's line of argument, we should abolish Christianity as it is solely responsible for the majority of crimes.

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Or like Black America it is evidence of a system's discrimination against Christians?

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Bartikus wrote:

Or like Black America it is evidence of a system's discrimination against Christians?

if the christians feel their right to discriminate is being discriminated against, i can only point them to boolean algebra. with everything being black and white, you'd think they would have a talent for it.

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Re: America Will Never Be A Secular Society

stlstrike3 wrote:

Reproduced from USA Today: http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/10/a-christian-fou.html

A Christian foundation
By Dinesh D'Souza

Consider science. Although there have been many civilizations in history, modern science developed in only one: Western civilization. And why? Because science is based on an assumption that is, at root, faith-based and theological. That is the assumption that the universe is rational and follows laws that are discoverable through human reason.

How is that "theological" in any way?

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i'm not sure how much science we'd have now if not for the advancements in math via the east, but far be it from me to judge the integrity or monopoly on scientific overview proudly held by usa today for the past several millennia.

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There are two major flaws in this argument that I see; first, it assumes that the idea of an organized, lawful universe first appeared in Christianity. Like almost every part of Christianity, this idea was pulled from Judaism, which in turn pulled from other religions. The fact of the matter is, pretty much every religion has claimed that the universe runs based on the laws of the god or gods that particular religion worships.

Secondly, it assumes that science got this view from Christianity. I would instead put forward that the idea came from a common source; basic human observations that the universe behaves in predictable ways. Christianity noticed something that science and countless other religions and philosophies also noticed; that given a certain cause, you will likely get the same effect. This isn't a particularly startling insight, when you think about it. From an evolution standpoint, it's almost an inevitable one.

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fungotheclown wrote:

There are two major flaws in this argument that I see; first, it assumes that the idea of an organized, lawful universe first appeared in Christianity. Like almost every part of Christianity, this idea was pulled from Judaism, which in turn pulled from other religions. The fact of the matter is, pretty much every religion has claimed that the universe runs based on the laws of the god or gods that particular religion worships.

Secondly, it assumes that science got this view from Christianity. I would instead put forward that the idea came from a common source; basic human observations that the universe behaves in predictable ways. Christianity noticed something that science and countless other religions and philosophies also noticed; that given a certain cause, you will likely get the same effect. This isn't a particularly startling insight, when you think about it. From an evolution standpoint, it's almost an inevitable one.

Good points.

Welcome to A2K Smile

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fungotheclown wrote:

There are two major flaws in this argument that I see; first, it assumes that the idea of an organized, lawful universe first appeared in Christianity. Like almost every part of Christianity, this idea was pulled from Judaism, which in turn pulled from other religions. The fact of the matter is, pretty much every religion has claimed that the universe runs based on the laws of the god or gods that particular religion worships.

Secondly, it assumes that science got this view from Christianity. I would instead put forward that the idea came from a common source; basic human observations that the universe behaves in predictable ways. Christianity noticed something that science and countless other religions and philosophies also noticed; that given a certain cause, you will likely get the same effect. This isn't a particularly startling insight, when you think about it. From an evolution standpoint, it's almost an inevitable one.

To understand Christian theology, you should recognize that it IS Judaism, which in turn claims it's roots in the religion of the patriarchs going back in time -- Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Noah and ultimately Adam.

So , Christianity, at it's heart, is the continuation of the first religion of mankind.

Christianity, in turn , views all other religions as apostate from that first faith.

btw fungo, welcome to A2K.

How's life back home in the ShowMe these days?

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Thanks for the welcome. MO is doing alright (well, except for the education system, but that's a different topic, isn't it?)

Even with that understanding, saying that religion is responsible for the idea of an ordered or lawful universe and that science just built off of/stole that is like saying that religion is responsible for the idea that the sky is blue. Not exactly an earth-shattering observation. Humans (and in fact, all animals) are hard-wired to detect patterns, to the point were we often see them where there aren't any (gambling systems anyone?). It shows a huge amount of arrogance on D'Souza's part to say that <i>any</i> single organization, movement, or system of thought was the first to notice patterns in the universe. In reality, humans were detecting patterns in the universe long before we could even be considered humans.

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real life wrote:

To understand Christian theology, you should recognize that it IS Judaism, which in turn claims it's roots in the religion of the patriarchs going back in time -- Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Noah and ultimately Adam.

So , Christianity, at it's heart, is the continuation of the first religion of mankind.

This presupposes that the idea of "Adam" as in "Adam and Eve" was literally true. You're not saying that you think the story of Adam and Eve is literally true are you?

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No it doesn't, it presupposes that there is an identifiable heritage of ideas. The men listed are fathers of the Judeo-Christian worldview in the same way that Ben Franklin is a father of the US, or Socrates is a father of western philosophy.

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fungotheclown wrote:

No it doesn't, it presupposes that there is an identifiable heritage of ideas. The men listed are fathers of the Judeo-Christian worldview in the same way that Ben Franklin is a father of the US, or Socrates is a father of western philosophy.

I was referring to RL's claim that "Christianity, at it's heart, is the continuation of the first religion of mankind."

The first religions of mankind are probably more rudimentary, since I suspect that Neanderthals and other hominids alive at the time probably had "religion" in some form. Air, Water and Fire spirits or something like that.

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
To understand Christian theology, you should recognize that it IS Judaism, which in turn claims it's roots in the religion of the patriarchs going back in time -- Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Noah and ultimately Adam.

So , Christianity, at it's heart, is the continuation of the first religion of mankind.

This presupposes that the idea of "Adam" as in "Adam and Eve" was literally true. You're not saying that you think the story of Adam and Eve is literally true are you?

I have no problem in stating that all living humans descended from one line.

I think science is coming round to the same conclusion.

The only thing we differ on is the timeline. But even some scientific sources are on record that the MRCA could have been as recent as a few thousand years ago.

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real life wrote:

I have no problem in stating that all living humans descended from one line.

Define what you mean by "one line".

(Because I guarantee you that "one line" in science does not refer to "Adam and Eve")

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
I have no problem in stating that all living humans descended from one line.

Define what you mean by "one line".

(Because I guarantee you that "one line" in science does not refer to "Adam and Eve")

What do you think it refers to , ros?

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real life wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
I have no problem in stating that all living humans descended from one line.

Define what you mean by "one line".

(Because I guarantee you that "one line" in science does not refer to "Adam and Eve")

What do you think it refers to , ros?

I think that for you, "one line" refers to the story of "Adam and Eve" being taken literally.

Why do you avoid answering the question? If that's not your view, then just say so. Are you embarrassed to admit that you believe the story of "Adam and Eve" is literally true?

There's nothing to be embarrassed about RL, you have no scientific credibility on A2K to lose, so you might as well just come out of the fundamentalist closet and embrace your "YECness" Smile

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
I have no problem in stating that all living humans descended from one line.

Define what you mean by "one line".

(Because I guarantee you that "one line" in science does not refer to "Adam and Eve")

What do you think it refers to , ros?

I think that for you, "one line" refers to the story of "Adam and Eve" being taken literally.

Why do you avoid answering the question? If that's not your view, then just say so. Are you embarrassed to admit that you believe the story of "Adam and Eve" is literally true?

There's nothing to be embarrassed about RL, you have no scientific credibility on A2K to lose, so you might as well just come out of the fundamentalist closet and embrace your "YECness"

I think I answered the question very clearly , ros.

Not sure why you can't do the same.

Do you agree that all living humans came from one line?

Let me help you with this. 'One line' means they can all be traced back to one individual.

As for any embarrassment, let me assure you I have no hesitation in stating that I do consider the earth to be young. So 'YECness' is not a problem at all.

As for credibility with the professed scientific types on A2K, I care more for logic and consistency than pack approval.

Since that's settled, now are you able to answer the question?

Do you agree with the science that indicates all living humans are descended from the same line?

Do you further agree with the assessment that the MRCA could have lived as recently as a few thousand years ago?

If not, on what scientific basis do you disagree with either?

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real life wrote:

Do you agree with the science that indicates all living humans are descended from the same line?

What do you think I think RL? Wink

(I just thought I would play your game for a while. Let me know when you get tired of it)

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What do you guys think I think you think about that?

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America Will Never Be A Secular Society

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