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Muslim leaders write to Pope asking interfaith understanding

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2008 02:08 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
I think most christians see God as the superset, of which the Universe is a subset.

From a scientific perspective that means that most christians believe in a super-Universe which consists not only of the natural Universe, but also their own imaginations.
not just Christians but Muslims, - and Jews.

So God dwells in a super universe which is a product of imagination. I'll go along with that. (I imagined lots of things before breakfast today).
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 05:41 am
I might be getting somewhat obsessed by the Islamist threat but this is what Geert Wilders is quoted as saying in this weeks Spectator magazine

"I really believe that the Koran is a fascist book and Islam - which is more ideology, according to me, than religion - is something that is at least very bad for our values and and our society. I'm not a cultural relativist. I believe that we should be proud of our culture. Our culture is far better than the more retarded Islamic culture. So this is why last year in an article I wrote, I said, well, we should ban the Koran. I initiated a big debate with the Prime Minister in the Dutch parliament about it and talked about how it would be good if there could be a new Koran like the New Testament and all the hatred and incitement and intolerance - get rid of that"

The interviewer remarks...The sole limit to freedom of speech that Wilders recognises is incitement. And this is the problem he has with the Koran.


..............................................

Wilders is of course making a film "Fitna". For which Al Qaeda has issued a fatwa calling on all muslims everywhere to try to kill him. The film is not released yet but the Dutch government has already apologised for it, is preparing to close streets around parliament and shop keepers presenting pre emptive claims for lost earnings.

...............................................


meanwhile when asked what is the main message for non Muslims from his film he says

"Stop being a cultural relativist and be proud of who you are and fight for it especially if, you know these people are not Buddhist...."
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 06:07 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Wilders is of course making a film "Fitna". For which Al Qaeda has issued a fatwa calling on all muslims everywhere to try to kill him. The film is not released yet but the Dutch government has already apologised for it, is preparing to close streets around parliament and shop keepers presenting pre emptive claims for lost earnings.

...............................................


meanwhile when asked what is the main message for non Muslims from his film he says

"Stop being a cultural relativist and be proud of who you are and fight for it especially if, you know these people are not Buddhist...."




Quote:

Source
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 06:13 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Quote:
De Volkskrant reports that its website had received more than 8,000 reactions by Monday evening to an advertisement placed on the bottom of its front page the same day condemning the anti-Muslim sentiments of the populist politician Geert Wilders.



http://i30.tinypic.com/260pphx.jpg
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 06:26 am
I dont understand this

Quote:
The Jew and the Muslim don't exist

Elisabeth Lubotsky, secretary of the youth group of the pro-Israeli Centre for Information and Documentation on Israel, says: "With his simplistic statements Wilders usually stays within the thin line of what can be considered freedom of speech. I also have problems with Wilders' populist tones…the nuance is missing. The Jew doesn't exist, nor does the Muslim. If Wilders generalises in such a fashion he's discriminating. Then you should do something about it."


Is she saying we are all just members of the same society, some Christian some Jewish some followers of Islam? If so I'm not sure Muslims would agree. It seems to me they consider themselves Muslim first, their allegiance is to Mohammed and Allah and they struggle for their beliefs and their culture to dominate over others, indigenous or not.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 06:48 am
I thought, she said what is printed their (but I'm no Englisman in Holland, so I might be wrong): there is no THE Jew nor any THE Muslim.

In Dutch she said: "Dé Jood bestaat niet, dé moslim evenmin." (source: De Trouw, 18.03.08)

Quote:
„Wilders blijft meestal binnen de dunne scheidslijn, de meeste simplistische uitspraken van hem vallen onder de vrijheid van meningsuiting", aldus Lubotsky. „Ik heb óók moeite met de populistische toon van Wilders, van ons mag het allemaal wat genuanceerder. Dé Jood bestaat niet, dé moslim evenmin. Als Wilders zo generaliseert, dan discrimineert hij wel. Dan moet je hem aanpakken."
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2008 05:24 pm
ok so she was saying you cant make generalisations. You cant make general statements about typical Muslims. I suppose I have to agree with that. But I do think Islam is different from other religions, I agree with Wilders that it is more a political ideology.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2008 12:42 am
Would be surprising if you'd taken a different view than Wilders' now :wink:
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2008 03:35 am
Well I am constantly perplexed by these sort of issues Walter. I criticise Islamism from a left perspective...or I believe I do...because I see it as conservative in the extreme. But I find myself in agreement with what Wilders says on Islam and find myself bracketed with him as "right wing". Not fair je dit. :wink:

I dont understand how anyone coming from a social democratic left of centre background can have anything but contempt for a misogynistic homophobic backward repressive medieval creed which engenders violence and claims to be in sole possession of the Ultimate Truth and as such claims status as a "religion" worthy of respect.

If someone wants to believe their lives are controlled by mice that live on the far side of the moon, they can. But if they start doing things here on earth which affect me, because "the mice told them", then I am critical of their nonsense beliefs, and frankly I dont care if they find what I have to say offensive.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2008 05:26 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Well I am constantly perplexed by these sort of issues Walter. I criticise Islamism from a left perspective...or I believe I do...because I see it as conservative in the extreme. But I find myself in agreement with what Wilders says on Islam and find myself bracketed with him as "right wing". Not fair je dit. :wink:

I dont understand how anyone coming from a social democratic left of centre background can have anything but contempt for a misogynistic homophobic backward repressive medieval creed which engenders violence and claims to be in sole possession of the Ultimate Truth and as such claims status as a "religion" worthy of respect.

If someone wants to believe their lives are controlled by mice that live on the far side of the moon, they can. But if they start doing things here on earth which affect me, because "the mice told them", then I am critical of their nonsense beliefs, and frankly I dont care if they find what I have to say offensive.

It's funny, I read your second and third paragraphs above before reading your first, and I wasn't sure which religion you were talking about. Christian extremists fit that description as well as muslim extremists (and there are probably others as well).
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2008 04:30 pm
I agree christian extremists are pretty weird but they do not, on the whole, go around blowing up themselves and other people around.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2008 04:56 pm
Quote:
In a new audio message purportedly from Osama bin Laden, the al-Qaeda leader threatens the EU over the re-printing of cartoons offensive to Muslims.

The taped message appeared on a Islamist website with a still image of bin Laden holding an AK-47.

The voice on it says the cartoons, re-published recently in Danish and other newspapers, were part of a crusade involving Pope Benedict XVI.

The voice has not yet been verified as belonging to bin Laden.

The message comes on the fifth anniversary of the US-led invasion of Iraq.

Last month, Denmark's leading newspapers reprinted cartoons that first angered many Muslims when they were originally published in 2006.

One of the drawings shows the Prophet Muhammad with a bomb in his turban.


Smile
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2008 02:44 pm
Re Wildersa, quite a good summary in spiegel-online:



Quote:
The only one who kept a clear head in this brewing climate of acute fear, preventive adjustment and growing violence was Wilders himself. He called upon Dutch television networks to broadcast his film in its entirety and without having seen it first, which they, of course, rejected. Then Nieuwspoort International Press Center in The Hague agreed to show the film in late March, in connection with a press conference, if Wilders would assume the costs of security for people and property. It was a generous offer, but tantamount to a rejection.

All this leaves Wilders is the Internet -- unless, of course, he decides not to show the film, which no one has seen and of which no one can say whether it even exists. The truth is that the "provocateur" has already achieved his goal. Wilders has managed to portray the Dutch and the Europeans as cowards, shouting "we capitulate!" before the battle has even begun.

As he sees it, they are loath to intervene in Iran's internal affairs but raise no objections when Iran intervenes in their internal affairs. They behave as if they want to protect the members of all religions against insults and abuse, all the while overlooking the fact that it is usually the members of one religion who respond aggressively whenever they are accused of having a propensity for violence.

Wilders could not have achieved more if his film had been shown.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2008 02:55 pm
It may be true that Wilders has made his point without even showing his film. But if some Muslims react violently because they think they might be offended by a film that they have not seen, where does the fault lie?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2008 03:03 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
It may be true that Wilders has made his point without even showing his film. But if some Muslims react violently because they think they might be offended by a film that they have not seen, where does the fault lie?


Actually, as far as it is known, noone has seen the film yet.

Where does the fault lie when someone demonstrates (violently) against something she/he hasn't seen, you ask.

I don't have a real answer - but e.g. I demonstrate (not violently, though) against right-wing/neo-nazi gatherings here before they happen.
Afterwards it's too late.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Mar, 2008 03:31 pm
Quote:

Web host suspends site planned for anti-Koran film
23 Mar 2008 01:27:50 GMT
Source: Reuters
AMSTERDAM, March 23 (Reuters) - A U.S.-based web service, which Islam critic and Dutch right-wing lawmaker Geert Wilders planned to use to show his film critical of the Koran, said on Saturday that it had inactivated the site due to complaints.

This site has been suspended while Network Solutions is investigating whether the site's content is in violation of the Network Solutions Acceptable Use Policy," the company said on the site www.fitnathemovie.com.

Wilders, who has given few details about his 15-minute film, has said he plans to release 'Fitna' on the Internet before the end of the month after Dutch broadcasters declined to show it. Fitna is a Koranic term sometimes translated as "strife".

Wilders still plans to show his film despite the setback, Dutch agency ANP reported.

"If need be, I will personally distribute DVDs in the Dam," ANP quoted him as saying. The Dam is the central square in Amsterdam, popular with both the Dutch and tourists.
... ... ...
Quote:

http://i28.tinypic.com/ot43m8.jpg
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2008 12:47 pm
more cowardice. It really is quite pathetic imo. If it becomes normal to ban publication of material that Muslims might find offensive, that would be a grave and retrograde step. Why can't they debate? Why is their first response to threaten violence?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2008 03:47 pm
Czech Party Offers to Show Anti-Islam Film

Quote:
The Web site for an anti-Koran film being made by Dutch right-wing lawkmaker Geert Wilders was suspended by its US hosting service over the weekend. But a far-right party in the Czech Republic has offered to screen it if Wilders can't find another outlet.

A far-right political party in the Czech Republic has offered to show a Dutch lawmaker's anti-Koran film if it is banned in the Netherlands.

The offer came after a US Internet hosting service suspended the Web site promoting "Fitna," the 15-minute film far-right politician Geert Wilders says he is making, on Saturday.

In the Netherlands, where Wilders leads the reactionary Freedom Party, the film has sparked demonstrations even before its release. Thousands demonstrated in central Amsterdam against the film on Saturday in a protest intended to show that Wilders does not represent the whole country.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2008 12:46 pm
Wilders released the movie today on the website of the PVV party.

See the BBC report: Dutch MP posts Islam film on web


However, the Partij voor de Vrijheid website is down.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Mar, 2008 10:01 am
The problem for the "moderate" Muslims is that the violent extremists insist on using the language of Islam, and the Koran to justify what they do. If only they would use holy texts from other religions...

But then they wouldnt be Muslims. The real problem is with Islam. Someone ought to re write the Koran and the Hadiths, explaining where Allah or Mohammed got it wrong.
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