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Should States Refuse Aid To Theology Students?

 
 
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 05:51 pm
A number of states have disallowed aid to students majoring in theology. Some people have gone to court, citing religious discrimination.

Quote:
Courts Weighing Rights of States to Curb Aid for Religion Studies
Sat Aug 9, 2:54 PM ET

By ADAM LIPTAK The New York Times

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich., Aug. 5 Teresa Becker made a costly decision when she chose after her sophomore year to major in theology.

She had received $1,200 in state scholarship money for her freshman year at Ave Maria College in Ypsilanti, Mich., in 2000. The next year she received $2,750 in state aid. Last June, she was promised that amount for her junior year, too.

A month later, when word of her choice of a major reached state officials, they wrote her a new letter.

"Students enrolled in a course of study leading to a degree in theology, divinity or religious education are not eligible to receive an award," it said, paraphrasing a state law. "Your award has changed from $2,750.00 to $0.00."

Ms. Becker sued. On July 21, Judge George Caram Steeh of Federal District Court in Detroit issued a preliminary ruling in her favor, saying the state had probably engaged in religious discrimination. Judge Steeh ordered the state to put her scholarship money in escrow until there is a final court ruling.

A case much like Ms. Becker's from Washington State will be decided by the United States Supreme Court in its next term. A trial in Ms. Becker's case has not been scheduled and may never be needed; the Supreme Court case will probably effectively decide hers as well.

Eleven states prohibit aid for the study of theology. In addition to Michigan and Washington, they are New York, New Jersey, Alabama, Louisiana, Missouri, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota and Wisconsin, according to a supporting brief filed in the Supreme Court by five state attorneys general.

The Washington case is in some ways the narrower one. The State Supreme Court interpreted theology to mean "instruction that resembles worship and manifests a devotion to religion and religious principles in thought, feeling, belief and conduct."

In Washington, then, teaching about religion as an academic subject, as opposed to religious teaching meant to inspire devotion, is fine.

The Michigan law is seemingly broader, and its original purpose is not well understood. In an e-mail message to an Ave Maria College official in January, the director of the state's scholarship office, Diana Todd Sprague, wrote: "I am not clear on why this was part of the statute since it was established in the 60's. It has been described to me as having to do with the separation of church and state, but I am not certain."

Jason Allen, a Republican state senator from here, called the history of the law murky. Senator Allen has introduced legislation to allow state aid for students studying theology.

Ronald Muller, the president of Ave Maria College, a Roman Catholic college, said its theology major is part of its liberal arts curriculum.

Theology "is an academic discipline like philosophy, English literature or the classics," he said.

Barry Lynn, the executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which opposes state financing for most religious education, said the Michigan statute might be too sweeping.

"The statute should probably read that persons preparing for the ministry or religious education are excluded," Mr. Lynn said.

The plaintiff in the Washington case, Joshua Davey, acknowledged that he is preparing for a career as a Christian minister. Ms. Becker, on the other hand, says she does not know what career she will choose.

"I am not seriously considering any sort of religious life," she said in an interview at her parents' home here. But she said that her interest in theology is not only academic.

"I selected theology as my undergraduate major," she wrote in court papers, "based on my sincere religious conviction that this course of study will help me pursue my vocation in life, to know, love and serve God and my fellow men."

Ms. Becker, 21, is spending the summer in this resort town where she grew up, on the shore of Lake Michigan. She is direct and serious, and she talked about the central role her Catholic faith plays in her life.

"I was raised in it," she said. "I love it. It influences how I act around others, how I treat others. It's my salvation. In a sense, it's everything."

She is working at a doctor's office to make up for the loss of state aid, and she volunteers with the local anti-abortion advocacy group. In the fall, she will start her senior year. She said she has heard nothing from the state about a fourth year of aid.

Ms. Becker said the scholarship law might have discouraged some of her fellow students at Ave Maria from choosing theology as their majors. That did not stop them, she said, from taking theology classes.

In a brief to the Supreme Court, Mr. Davey's lawyers said that having scholarship decisions turn on what major a student declares is a little odd.

A student "could take numerous theology courses, paid for by state grants, so long as his major was something else (like psychology or math)," the lawyers wrote. But a student who declares a theology major would get no state money for an entire year "even if the student takes nothing but language, literature, philosophy and science," they said.

Ms. Becker's lawyers at the Thomas More Law Center, a conservative public interest law firm in Ann Arbor, Mich., emphasized what they called the unfairness of the distinction the Michigan law draws.

"An atheist committed to scientific materialism may study the Big Bang, the laws governing the subsequent organization of matter and, ultimately, the amphibian from which man is said to have evolved all without forfeiting his scholarship," they wrote in court papers. "But Teresa must forfeit her scholarship if she wishes to discuss the Uncaused Cause that created the stuff of the Big Bang, and the notion that the laws that govern creation are not merely statistically improbable but so irreducibly complex that the heavens proclaim the glory of the Lord."

Aaron Caplan, a staff lawyer at the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) in Washington State, said that states should be free to decide what kinds of study to support. They can, for instance, offer scholarships for medical school but not law school. And while court decisions hold that states are free to offer scholarships for religious study, Mr. Caplan said, it does not follow that states should be required to do so.

The Washington case and Ms. Becker's boil down to one proposition, he said: "A state may legally choose not to fund people's religious education."

Ms. Becker saw it differently. "The state is violating people's rights to religious freedom," she said. Her fellow students have expressed support. "They're praying for me and rooting for me," she said.


Should the states have the authority to decide whether to withhold aid to theology students?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,434 • Replies: 31
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 06:59 pm
Purely on a fiscal basis, I'm betting that theology students are more likely to graduate and more likely to repay student loans than aspiring cosmotologists.

I know on the community college level in PA, state grants are available for AA degrees in rock music/concert production.

The Founding Fathers (and Mothers) favored the separation of church and state, but I have no difficulty with state loans to theology majors--or for that matter, aspiring clergy.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 07:00 pm
I think it should be illegal to study theology. j/k
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LibertyD
 
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Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 07:11 pm
Sounds like pure discrimination, to me.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 07:14 pm
when my local coven gets 13 state funded educations then we can talk about methodists et al/
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 07:25 pm
My all-female all-nude religion is discriminated against.
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LibertyD
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 10:54 pm
Yeah, but you need to talk to the colleges about that one -- there's got to be something to the fact that there aren't any theology programs (that I know of anyway) in either Wicca or All-Female-All-Nude-Religion. Maybe you guys have something here. Wink
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 04:01 am
I have no problem with loans -- but I think grants should not be given to theology students.

I am not completely against aid for theology students -- and any psychological or psychiatric help that can be offered, should be.
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 12:24 pm
I'm not a religious person. I've never been baptized and do not expect to be.

Still, I'm baffled at the hostility shown to mainstream organized religion in this thread.

Theology is a respectable branch of philosophy and demands rigorous thinking.

A theology major is not the same as graduate work in a school for divinity.

Even then, I'd rather have book-learned people in pulpits than churches dominated by the divinely inspired).
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 12:33 pm
Quote:
Purely on a fiscal basis, I'm betting that theology students are more likely to graduate and more likely to repay student loans than aspiring cosmotologists
.

The evidence here is quite different, Noddy. Theology students who are academics will likely take decades to pay off their student loans, as there are comparatively few jobs as professors of theology. Those who are going into the 'field' are also going to find significant financial difficulty. The churches that 'want' the degree in theology do not pay well. The cosmetologist is going to graduate, get a job, and probably make decent tips. (my hairdresser - a young woman working in a very basic neighbourhood - owns 2 houses, drives a mercedes, just bought a new van for her partner so he'll be able to transport the kids after she delivers her third baby - she's way ahead of any minister I know).

Now, having said all that, I'd still support aid for those studying theology on an academic basis.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 12:33 pm
Noddy 24-

Quote:
In Washington, then, teaching about religion as an academic subject, as opposed to religious teaching meant to inspire devotion, is fine.


It looks like the various states have defined theology on different levels, in terms of students receiving grants.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 12:46 pm
In Germany, as in most other European countries, you can't study theology as at 'real' universities - and the 'private' clerical universities have highest academic reputation (but on the latter, students won't get state money/aid).
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 02:47 pm
ebeth--

I don't have the exact figures, but nearly two thirds of Beauty School Students default on Student Loans. Evidently the defaulters assume that the classes will give them the know how to make themselves irresistiable and when they discover that the course work involves both book learning and harsh chemicals they drop out--and don't repay the student loans.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 03:24 pm
Depends on what the goal of financial aid is.

If the goal is to train productive workers, you could make a case for withholding aid from English and psychology majors (or offer them courses in hamburger flipping).

If the goal is to educate people to be well-rounded and broad-minded citizens, any liberal arts degree that includes a variety of courses should be acceptable. As long as theology students are taught without bias about all religions and mythology and instead of being indoctrinated, I have no problem with giving them financial aid.

Should states give scholarships to those wishing to major in alien psychology at Roswell University (hopefully there is no such school, but these days you never know), get an MD in faith healing, or a BS degree in scientology?
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 03:40 pm
hmmmmm, i pulled the most recent stats i could find on this. In Canada, computer programming, software design, administrative assistant and medical office assistant students appear to have a higher rate of default than cosmetology students. That said, cosmetology students have a higher rate of default than esthetiticians. Medical secretary students are defaulting 83% of the time at one school. Massage therapy students seem to be a safe bet.

Ontario Student Assistance Default Rates 1997

stats for 2002 in Ontario - the break-out by profession isn't as obvious if you don't know the school
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2003 01:32 pm
My figures on dropouts are local and because of unscrupulous Beauty School recruiters, may be inflated.
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maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2003 02:37 pm
Noddy24 wrote:
Still, I'm baffled at the hostility shown to mainstream organized religion in this thread.


Agree. The problem is not the thread, but the pack of snipers surfing A2K looking for opportunities to release their "open minded" hostility towards religion.

Rolling Eyes

Theology is as much a part of our Western heritage as Philosophy, Medicine, etc. However, some people have chosen to blind themselves to this very simple fact. And they preach that everybody else should be as blind as they've chosen to be.

:wink:
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2003 02:40 pm
Nah, I'd say religion is the problem. Noddy would be baffled by a lot of the stories I could tell. And Maliagar, the routine about how "open mindedness" means agreeing with you is as old as it is insipid.
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Sugar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2003 02:56 pm
Considering some of the people that I know who already get aid and grants, theology students are at the very bottom of my list of people to worry about.

A student is a student and I really don't see how my personal beliefs should affect their ability to get financial aid. Murders get degrees in prison but I'm worried about theology majors getting school money? An 'aquaintance' of mine gets federal grants and state funded health care because she's actually just too lazy to work, the school gives the unused money to HER via a computer glitch that she has failed to notify them of, and I'm worried about theology majors? No way.

Freedom of, not from.

There are all kinds of people who take decades to pay off their student loans - lawyers, doctors, business majors - I don't think anyone in a certain major is any better than another.

***This message has been brought to you by a good Catholic school girl who went through that for 12 years and became a firm atheist.

Noddy - my aquaintance is a former cosmotologist. Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2003 02:58 pm
maliagar wrote:
Theology is as much a part of our Western heritage as Philosophy, Medicine, etc. However, some people have chosen to blind themselves to this very simple fact. And they preach that everybody else should be as blind as they've chosen to be. :wink:


Are you saying that there are people in A2K who are preaching that theology is not a part of our Western heritage?

I've never seen anyone argue that at all.

Why are you making that assertion?

As for "blindness" on the part of people posting in A2K, I've seen more "blindness" in your posts than in the posts of many of the people you are pot shotting here.
0 Replies
 
 

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