IMDB - Signs religious debate continued

Rik-22 - Welcome to A2K!

. That is nice, but how are WE to know what was discussed?
See above WHAT for examples??

Sorry, but theres too much to re-display
Here was the original debate:

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0286106/board/nest/2454223

Unfortunately it became too big of a discussion and ended up not at all related to the film 'Signs', so it was suggested to move to a more appropraite forum, hence here.

I'll requote the specific contradictions:


2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death"
2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"

2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."
2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."

But obviously this is all out of context.

Well that's nice that you thought to bring this discussion to a2k, RIK-22. Can you say why, since you are just hatched? Maybe you've heard of us? How thrilling. There are some great thinkers here, not me, but some. I don't know if you'll get them to read this question. Maybe you could try to entice them by rephrasing your question on a new topic headline. Advertising... it's everything.

I read some of your discussion. It certainly went on & on. I've been on a BBC board so I understand wanting to discuss things you've seen. I haven't seen this movie you talked about a bit... it wouldn't really interest me. I think I might even actively avoid it.

But I'm sure you're not basing religious beliefs based on a movie, so I assume that for some people this movie reaffirms their truths, while for others it is patently stupid. Did it disturb you?

Having studied at length & once practiced the Christian faith, I've seen it do good things for some people. In a fellowship there is a lovely connection with your community & some great food & songs. The King James version of the Bible has some of the most beautiful passages written in English. There are some so poetic & reasonable that you can just feel are true, even in metaphor. The contradictions you have noted seem perfectly straightforward to me. Yep. They're bizarre aren't they. Should I look them up. <sigh > Luckily, I have a gorgeous, leather-bound KJV. Did you know it was translated between 1604 and 1611 at the behest of King James after he, like Kenneth McAlpine before him, increased the size of the Scottish sphere when he added the throne of England to his throne in Edinburgh? A fabulous story. OK. I'll go & look now.

Hmmm. That II. Samuel 2:8 does end, "... the five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul, whom she brought us for Adri'el, son of...."

Sorry, your first contradiction isn't much of one. NOT that I don't agree with you on there being some.

There doesn't seem to be too much point in arguing with people who want to believe based on a book or a movie. I think that real-life is a better basis.


Here's my religious quote of the day. Are there any like this in this film? They're probably the ones I'd agree with...

Hi RIK-22! Do you know *caramel*? I believe she's also from the IMDB boards.

Signs was kind of an interesting film, I thought. Took me most of the film to figure out it was a reference to the biblical phrase, "signs and wonders".

Anyway, biblical contradictions - there are lots of 'em. This is what comes from a lot of authors and not very good fact-checking, if any. Hence, you get the same king starting his reign at 2 different ages. As for Michal, perhaps she adopted?

A reply
Thanks for the response.

I was scanning Google for a good general forum site, most seemed to have religious discussions, but all seemed to be associated with a small group of people (i.e. people who love fishing, etc). I found this site and found it ideal.

I agree that the contradictions I mentioned are hardly earth shattering and thats why I mentioned that these were out of the context of the argument. This was just to demonstrate to a number of people, who claim the Bible is perfect and cannot be challenged, but even with the smallest of effort you can find contradictions.

"Why do I care" I hear you ask. "Can't you let everyone believe what they want". This is an issue for me, I used the analogy before If I was in a room of 7 people and 6 of them believed the Earth was flat, yet I knew different, should I just ignore the fact they're wrong or try my utmost to persuade them of their mistake. For me I find it annoying that people believe in something that we have no evidence for. Yes it might make their life better, but it doesn't get away from the fact, that in my opinion, it's a lie.

I dislike Christianity the most because, it's the one I know the most about and the one that affects my world the most. If you really get down to the facts, the Bible really doesn't carry much weight, when you see all the contradictions and you know it's history, I can't understand how so many people pursue this religion so vehemently. Lets be honest Christianity's whole basis is the Bible

Maybe it's because of my IT background, but without logic and evidence I can't accept people just believe in something for no other reason than because they choose to.

Hello RIK-22! My own view? Christianity and the Bible are oudated and no longer have the ability to help people lead worthwhile lives. I have been a practicing Buddhist for 22 years. Buddhism believes we are responsible for our own destinies. The Universe has no "beginning" as such.

Thanks for the explanation about bringing it to a2k; I was wondering.

I agree with you that wanting to set people straight is a prime motivator. I'm not a Christian and don't respect the religion too much anymore because it is made of up a lot of little things that don't add up. Plus, I don't care for proselytizing. I think I find it most annoying that there are so many little parts to the belief... this water changes to wine*, this number means something bad, etc. and I truly dislike the attempts to control people's behavior. But when someone bases their whole life on a religion, which Christianity certainly encourages you to do (though Islam is just as bad and hasn't even had a Reformation) then they get locked into a lot of mini-beliefs which can run them into trouble. Instead of thinking for themselves, they look to a huge body of work for direction about what to do.

On the other hand, I think it is good to believe in something... the innate goodness of people, the beauty of the world, love... there are lots of options available and it doesn't have to be exclusively one or the other. Then, if you're really good, you try to work with a passion for what you believe in. At least you can maintain a lifestyle that is in sync with that belief, ie. & looking to my list there... helping others, protecting the environment, being good to your family.

But as to arguing about religion... sigh. You say you like logic and evidence. Me, too.

Many of us get brain-washed as children. How many know the little kid songs from summer Bible school, for example? Those were drummed into our heads. It is fairly accepted to use the local church for a gathering place, then when you get in, they try to hook you with the "See, we're good and we have this nice place. We believe this. (And this and this and this...) You SHOULD, too."

There's little logic in brain-washing, little logic in the fears that are behind most of the willingness to go along with your local religion's beliefs, but it sticks to most people. Probably about 5/7ths of 'em.

-- >Well, welcome to a2k, RIK. I've got to go shopping, but it was nice chatting. Hope to see you around. We've got some fairly active topics but it been quieter than usual this month. Vacations, I'm thinking.


* Must admit that, loving the idea of magic, this particular belief has a lot of appeal and I can therefore appreciate the belief in service wine changing into blood.

You want biblical contradictions -- I'll give ya biblical contradictions.



http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra.html


Have fun!

Silly debate....
please guys stop and think about what you really are for a moment. I am an agnostic and would never argue against the existance of god because the basis of my belief is that the exsistance of god cannot be proven. It IS NOT A BELIEF THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

If you are an atheist so be it, but knock off the "atheist/agnostic" crap because the two have nothing at all to do with one another. And don't be going around branding us true agnostics as faithless morons either, would ya? Nobody could prove the atom existed but we were able to calculate it's properties with amazing accuracy. The search for truth is not always a fruitless venture. Who knows, maybe someday someone will prove that god exists. good enough then, but agnosticism as I live it and as it should be lived believes that what we see right now in front of us and around us is what is.

So please, all of you atheists stop confusing yourselves with Agnostics... your giving us a bad name...

RIK-22 and Karthartic-----um well i dont really think we "atheists" confuse ourselves with agnostics, Frank Aspisa is our resident agnostic and well versed in his philosophy (to which i tend to defer) some of us call ourselves atheists mainly for social/political reasons (its easier/simpler) in dealing with other people. I also find that dogmatic statements tend to be rejected out of hand especially when generalized to non-specific others. this is often an enjoyable forum for discussion of ideas be they religious or otherwise and most of us are ameniable to civil discourse so i hope you stick around and enjoy the company.

I am a died in the wool atheist. I don't confuse my thought with Frank's (THE agnostic). He says there could be a god of some sort; I say poppycock and horsefeathers.

I agree with dyslexia on this.

"Maybe it's because of my IT background, but without logic and evidence I can't accept people just believe in something for no other reason than because they choose to."

That's because most people are illogical. Ask my wife, she does IT as well. Welcome! Love your concluding statement, btw, I completely agree

RIK-22 - you are so cool! Good job! Great way to explain what you mean and you'll find lots of people here who agree. You've made excellent points about what's wrong with organized religion in general and Christianity in particular. It is amazing that some people are so drawn to it. I can only figure it's because the idealized vision of Jesus as your personal, powerful friend who can do no wrong is a huge draw. We all want to be part of something bigger than ourselves and if our parents, for whatever reason, told us this was right, then who are we to change family traditions?

Can't blame just the parents though... most people are just trying to get along as best they can and never seriously consider what they believe. Once they're stuck in a belief structure, they don't want to get out of it.

I am an agnostic.

I do not know if there is a God or if there are no gods -- and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a reasonable guess in either direction.

Same thing goes with other questions about Ultimate Reality and Existence.


Kathartic

Welcome to A2K. Always happy to see another agnostic on the scene.

I'm not sure of what you read that set you off on that recent commentary of yours, but I can assure you that the atheists in A2K never, never confuse themselves with agnostics.

It happens that we agnostics and atheists have some interesting (if at times somewhat heated) exchanges -- and we find lots in common -- altlhough there is, and always will, be significant differences between agnosticism and atheism.

I would suggest that in the future, if you see statements that bother you (as some statements obviously did) you quote them -- so we can read them in context. That will allow us to respond to your comments more intelligently.

Hope you become an active member.

Looking forward to hearing any other views you'd care to share.




By the way -- do you know the biggest problem atheists have in this world?

There's no one for them to call out to when having an orgasm!

Welcome to ya both, Rik- 22 and Kathartic ... hoipe to see you folks around with some regularity. You'll find there's a diversity of opinions on this and just about any other imaginable subject in the various forums here ... and plenty of folks eager to discuss the issues.

As for this particular question, I put myself in the Agnostic Camp for lack of better accomodations ... and have done so at some length and detail any number of times here on A2K and elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned, there simply is insufficient data on which to base a conclusion. One may have assumptions or preferences, but the matter is in no evident prospect of resolution.

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Christians break these moral laws on a daily basis, as it’s virtually impossible not too. This then shows that the moral code in the Bible is questionable.
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Sorry -- not to be argumentative -- but I didn't follow the logic of that one. Are you saying that "moral laws in the Bible" are questionable because they cannot possibly be fulfilled?


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Why would an all powerful entity have a son in human form. Surely he/she/it is beyond such a simple concept .
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No, not from my viewpoint. The point in becoming a man was to illustrate -- in as human terms as possible -- his understanding of the difficulty -- the complexity -- of Being a man. Perhaps even show his sympathy for such. It is not at all complex to be God, because God has commands absolutely and has absolute certainty. Men have none of this.


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You have a God that seems to intervene in peoples life throughout the Bible and some claim still Today. Yet he seems to turn his back on huge amounts of suffering throughout the world. This to me means that he/she/it is a fairly petty, cruel, God, that I would not like to follow anyway.
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It is also true that s/he also shirks absolute responsibility. No one believes that only sinners drown in a Flood. The faithful die equally painful deaths. I guess that is what makes it difficult to refrain from feelings of hostility and abandonment. It is difficult to fathom why he has "turned his face away."

But I don't need miracles as evidence for anything. I have never been to Spain, but I am reasonably certain that it exists. The numinous fear I have experienced when contemplating an absolute being has motivated the peculiar faith that I practice and feel. It may not always guide my everyday actions, but I have great faith in it anyway.

Numinous Fear?