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Subjectivity is Failed Objectivity

 
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 03:10 pm
But with great reluctance.
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gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 03:12 pm
And the price of clothes!
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gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 03:12 pm
How dare you, sir?!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 03:18 pm
agrote wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's a philosophical truth.


What do you mean by that?


People base their lives on philosophical truths and what they believe to be our physical truth. People conceptualize their own reality based on how they think about life as they are taught by their parents, teachers, and peers, and what they "see" to be the truth. Humans are limited by the capacity of our brains, our biology, and our genes and environment. Each life sees and learns differently from the next or past individuals - as far as we know. We qualify and quantify subjectively and objectively in our own minds, and that becomes our truth.
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Mame
 
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Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 03:18 pm
At least your comma is in the right place.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 03:33 pm
It is?
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 03:37 pm
gustavratzenhofer wrote:
How dare you, sir?!


yup.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 05:33 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
agrote wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's a philosophical truth.


What do you mean by that?


People base their lives on philosophical truths and what they believe to be our physical truth. People conceptualize their own reality based on how they think about life as they are taught by their parents, teachers, and peers, and what they "see" to be the truth. Humans are limited by the capacity of our brains, our biology, and our genes and environment. Each life sees and learns differently from the next or past individuals - as far as we know. We qualify and quantify subjectively and objectively in our own minds, and that becomes our truth.


Right. But things are true regardless of what conclusions we draw using outr limited minds. The truth is out there, regardless of whether we can get at it. That's objective truth.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 06:43 pm
However, objective truth and philosophical truth can depend on one's culture also. The "truth out there" is a conglomeration of our perception.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Sep, 2007 09:09 pm
As you may know by now, C.I., I don't think there's objective TRUTH "out there"; there is objective REALITY perhaps, but truth is a value we place on the "valid" propositions we make about the nature of reality and the nature of our mental relationship with "it" (i.e., epistemology). Truth is essentially subjective ("in here", in our heads) and inter-subjective (ideas we share with others).
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gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 12:05 am
My apologies, CI. I intended no harm.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 01:05 am
JLNobody wrote:
As you may know by now, C.I., I don't think there's objective TRUTH "out there"; there is objective REALITY perhaps, but truth is a value we place on the "valid" propositions we make about the nature of reality and the nature of our mental relationship with "it" (i.e., epistemology). Truth is essentially subjective ("in here", in our heads) and inter-subjective (ideas we share with others).


But if there's an objective reality, then surely that reality has a nature? It is a certain 'way'. In other words, certain things are true about it... or certain propositions which we can come up with in an attempt to describe that reality, are true. The propositions themselves might be 'in our heads', but their truth is not subjective. Their truth is their correspondence with an objective reality. That's what I believe, anyway

Quote:
However, objective truth and philosophical truth can depend on one's culture also. The "truth out there" is a conglomeration of our perception.


No, objective truth cannot depend on one's culture. That's just a misunderstanding of what 'objective' means. If you don't believe in objective truths, then that's fair enough, but to claim that they are mind-dependent is to misunderstand what the term 'objective' is used to refer to. Objective truths are those truths which do not depend on our culture, or our perception, or anything else about us and our minds. They are true regardless of those things.

The question is whether there actually are any objective truths... I think there are, but I presume that you don't?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 09:42 am
agrote, It's true that objective truth exists even without the mind. But in reality, nothing exists without the mind.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 11:17 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
agrote, It's true that objective truth exists even without the mind. But in reality, nothing exists without the mind.


What?! If nothing exists without the mind, then how can objective truth exist without the mind?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 11:40 am
agrote wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
agrote, It's true that objective truth exists even without the mind. But in reality, nothing exists without the mind.


What?! If nothing exists without the mind, then how can objective truth exist without the mind?


Because it is us humans that puts value on them. Without humans, it doesn't matter.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 01:08 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
agrote wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
agrote, It's true that objective truth exists even without the mind. But in reality, nothing exists without the mind.


What?! If nothing exists without the mind, then how can objective truth exist without the mind?


Because it is us humans that puts value on them. Without humans, it doesn't matter.


What's 'them'? Us humans put value on what?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 01:15 pm
On anything and everything we humans put any "value" on.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 01:19 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
On anything and everything we humans put any "value" on.


You're saying that: Humans put value on anything and everything that they put value on.

That's a tautology. It's meaningless... it provides no information whatsoever. It's like saying "fish are fish".
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 01:22 pm
It is tautology, because it's the simplist explanation.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Sep, 2007 01:57 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
It is tautology, because it's the simplist explanation.


But it's not an explanation of anything! Explanations carry information. Saying "A fish is a fish" does not explain anything at all. That's basically all you've said.
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