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The Overwhelming Failure of Gun Control in England

 
 
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 08:42 am
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html


Gun Control's Twisted Outcome

Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.

Joyce Lee Malcolm | November 2002 Print Edition

On a June evening two years ago, Dan Rather made many stiff British upper lips quiver by reporting that England had a crime problem and that, apart from murder, "theirs is worse than ours." The response was swift and sharp. "Have a Nice Daydream," The Mirror, a London daily, shot back, reporting: "Britain reacted with fury and disbelief last night to claims by American newsmen that crime and violence are worse here than in the US." But sandwiched between the article's battery of official denials -- "totally misleading," "a huge over-simplification," "astounding and outrageous" -- and a compilation of lurid crimes from "the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic where every other car is carrying a gun," The Mirror conceded that the CBS anchorman was correct. Except for murder and rape, it admitted, "Britain has overtaken the US for all major crimes."

In the two years since Dan Rather was so roundly rebuked, violence in England has gotten markedly worse. Over the course of a few days in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year's Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice.

None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the "gold standard" of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist article characterized as requiring "a restraint on personal liberty that seems, in most civilised countries, essential to the happiness of others," a policy the magazine found at odds with "America's Vigilante Values." The safety of English people has been staked on the thesis that fewer private guns means less crime. The government believes that any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a danger, and that disarming them lessens the chance that criminals will get or use weapons.

The results -- the toughest firearm restrictions of any democracy -- are credited by the world's gun control advocates with producing a low rate of violent crime. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Lewis Powell reflected this conventional wisdom when, in a 1988 speech to the American Bar Association, he attributed England's low rates of violent crime to the fact that "private ownership of guns is strictly controlled."

In reality, the English approach has not re-duced violent crime. Instead it has left law-abiding citizens at the mercy of criminals who are confident that their victims have neither the means nor the legal right to resist them. Imitating this model would be a public safety disaster for the United States.

The illusion that the English government had protected its citizens by disarming them seemed credible because few realized the country had an astonishingly low level of armed crime even before guns were restricted. A government study for the years 1890-92, for example, found only three handgun homicides, an average of one a year, in a population of 30 million. In 1904 there were only four armed robberies in London, then the largest city in the world. A hundred years and many gun laws later, the BBC reported that England's firearms restrictions "seem to have had little impact in the criminal underworld." Guns are virtually outlawed, and, as the old slogan predicted, only outlaws have guns. Worse, they are increasingly ready to use them.

Nearly five centuries of growing civility ended in 1954. Violent crime has been climbing ever since. Last December, London's Evening Standard reported that armed crime, with banned handguns the weapon of choice, was "rocketing." In the two years following the 1997 handgun ban, the use of handguns in crime rose by 40 percent, and the upward trend has continued. From April to November 2001, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in London rose 53 percent.

Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people.

This sea change in English crime followed a sea change in government policies. Gun regulations have been part of a more general disarmament based on the proposition that people don't need to protect themselves because society will protect them. It also will protect their neighbors: Police advise those who witness a crime to "walk on by" and let the professionals handle it.

This is a reversal of centuries of common law that not only permitted but expected individuals to defend themselves, their families, and their neighbors when other help was not available. It was a legal tradition passed on to Americans. Personal security was ranked first among an individual's rights by William Blackstone, the great 18th-century exponent of the common law. It was a right, he argued, that no government could take away, since no government could protect the individual in his moment of need. A century later Blackstone's illustrious successor, A.V. Dicey, cautioned, "discourage self-help and loyal subjects become the slaves of ruffians."

But modern English governments have put public order ahead of the individual's right to personal safety. First the government clamped down on private possession of guns; then it forbade people to carry any article that might be used for self-defense; finally, the vigor of that self-defense was to be judged by what, in hindsight, seemed "reasonable in the circumstances."

The 1920 Firearms Act was the first serious British restriction on guns. Although crime was low in England in 1920, the government feared massive labor disruption and a Bolshevik revolution. In the circumstances, permitting the people to remain armed must have seemed an unnecessary risk. And so the new policy of disarming the public began. The Firearms Act required a would-be gun owner to obtain a certificate from the local chief of police, who was charged with determining whether the applicant had a good reason for possessing a weapon and was fit to do so. All very sensible. Parliament was assured that the intention was to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals and other dangerous persons. Yet from the start the law's enforcement was far more restrictive, and Home Office instructions to police -- classified until 1989 -- periodically narrowed the criteria.

At first police were instructed that it would be a good reason to have a revolver if a person "lives in a solitary house, where protection against thieves and burglars is essential, or has been exposed to definite threats to life on account of his performance of some public duty." By 1937 police were to discourage applications to possess firearms for house or personal protection. In 1964 they were told "it should hardly ever be necessary to anyone to possess a firearm for the protection of his house or person" and that "this principle should hold good even in the case of banks and firms who desire to protect valuables or large quantities of money."

In 1969 police were informed "it should never be necessary for anyone to possess a firearm for the protection of his house or person." These changes were made without public knowledge or debate. Their enforcement has consumed hundreds of thousands of police hours. Finally, in 1997 handguns were banned. Proposed exemptions for handicapped shooters and the British Olympic team were rejected.

Even more sweeping was the 1953 Prevention of Crime Act, which made it illegal to carry in a public place any article "made, adapted, or intended" for an offensive purpose "without lawful authority or excuse." Carrying something to protect yourself was branded antisocial. Any item carried for possible defense automatically became an offensive weapon. Police were given extensive power to stop and search everyone. Individuals found with offensive items were guilty until proven innocent.

During the debate over the Prevention of Crime Act in the House of Commons, a member from Northern Ireland told his colleagues of a woman employed by Parliament who had to cross a lonely heath on her route home and had armed herself with a knitting needle. A month earlier, she had driven off a youth who tried to snatch her handbag by jabbing him "on a tender part of his body." Was it to be an offense to carry a knitting needle? The attorney general assured the M.P. that the woman might be found to have a reasonable excuse but added that the public should be discouraged "from going about with offensive weapons in their pockets; it is the duty of society to protect them."

Another M.P. pointed out that while "society ought to undertake the defense of its members, nevertheless one has to remember that there are many places where society cannot get, or cannot get there in time. On those occasions a man has to defend himself and those whom he is escorting. It is not very much consolation that society will come forward a great deal later, pick up the bits, and punish the violent offender."

In the House of Lords, Lord Saltoun argued: "The object of a weapon was to assist weakness to cope with strength and it is this ability that the bill was framed to destroy. I do not think any government has the right, though they may very well have the power, to deprive people for whom they are responsible of the right to defend themselves." But he added: "Unless there is not only a right but also a fundamental willingness amongst the people to defend themselves, no police force, however large, can do it."

That willingness was further undermined by a broad revision of criminal law in 1967 that altered the legal standard for self-defense. Now everything turns on what seems to be "reasonable" force against an assailant, considered after the fact. As Glanville Williams notes in his Textbook of Criminal Law, that requirement is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it [self-defense] still forms part of the law."

The original common law standard was similar to what still prevails in the U.S. Americans are free to carry articles for their protection, and in 33 states law-abiding citizens may carry concealed guns. Americans may defend themselves with deadly force if they believe that an attacker is about to kill or seriously injure them, or to prevent a violent crime. Our courts are mindful that, as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes observed, "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an upraised knife."

But English courts have interpreted the 1953 act strictly and zealously. Among articles found illegally carried with offensive intentions are a sandbag, a pickaxe handle, a stone, and a drum of pepper. "Any article is capable of being an offensive weapon," concede the authors of Smith and Hogan Criminal Law, a popular legal text, although they add that if the article is unlikely to cause an injury the onus of proving intent to do so would be "very heavy."

The 1967 act has not been helpful to those obliged to defend themselves either. Granville Williams points out: "For some reason that is not clear, the courts occasionally seem to regard the scandal of the killing of a robber as of greater moment than the safety of the robber's victim in respect of his person and property."

A sampling of cases illustrates the impact of these measures:

� In 1973 a young man running on a road at night was stopped by the police and found to be carrying a length of steel, a cycle chain, and a metal clock weight. He explained that a gang of youths had been after him. At his hearing it was found he had been threatened and had previously notified the police. The justices agreed he had a valid reason to carry the weapons. Indeed, 16 days later he was attacked and beaten so badly he was hospitalized. But the prosecutor appealed the ruling, and the appellate judges insisted that carrying a weapon must be related to an imminent and immediate threat. They sent the case back to the lower court with directions to convict.

� In 1987 two men assaulted Eric Butler, a 56-year-old British Petroleum executive, in a London subway car, trying to strangle him and smashing his head against the door. No one came to his aid. He later testified, "My air supply was being cut off, my eyes became blurred, and I feared for my life." In desperation he unsheathed an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of his attackers, stabbing the man in the stomach. The assailants were charged with wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

� In 1994 an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house while he called the police. When the officers arrived, they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten or intimidate. In a similar incident the following year, when an elderly woman fired a toy cap pistol to drive off a group of youths who were threatening her, she was arrested for putting someone in fear. Now the police are pressing Parliament to make imitation guns illegal.

� In 1999 Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two burglars, both with long criminal records, burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before, and his village, like 70 percent of rural English communities, had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and a year for having an unregistered shotgun. The wounded burglar, having served 18 months of a three-year sentence, is now free and has been granted �5,000 of legal assistance to sue Martin.

The failure of English policy to produce a safer society is clear, but what of British jibes about "America's vigilante values" and our much higher murder rate?

Historically, America has had a high homicide rate and England a low one. In a comparison of New York and London over a 200-year period, during most of which both populations had unrestricted access to firearms, historian Eric Monkkonen found New York's homicide rate consistently about five times London's. Monkkonen pointed out that even without guns, "the United States would still be out of step, just as it has been for two hundred years."

Legal historian Richard Maxwell Brown has argued that Americans have more homicides because English law insists an individual should retreat when attacked, whereas Americans believe they have the right to stand their ground and kill in self-defense. Americans do have more latitude to protect themselves, in keeping with traditional common law standards, but that would have had less significance before England's more restrictive policy was established in 1967.

The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by differences in the way each counts homicides. The FBI asks police to list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn't subsequently prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as possible.

The London-based Office of Health Economics, after a careful international study, found that while "one reason often given for the high numbers of murders and manslaughters in the United States is the easy availability of firearms...the strong correlation with racial and socio-economic variables suggests that the underlying determinants of the homicide rate are related to particular cultural factors."

Cultural differences and more-permissive legal standards notwithstanding, the English rate of violent crime has been soaring since 1991. Over the same period, America's has been falling dramatically. In 1999 The Boston Globe reported that the American murder rate, which had fluctuated by about 20 percent between 1974 and 1991, was "in startling free-fall." We have had nine consecutive years of sharply declining violent crime. As a result the English and American murder rates are converging. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and the latest study puts it at 3.5 times.

Preliminary figures for the U.S. this year show an increase, although of less than 1 percent, in the overall number of violent crimes, with homicide increases in certain cities, which criminologists attribute to gang violence, the poor economy, and the release from prison of many offenders. Yet Americans still enjoy a substantially lower rate of violent crime than England, without the "restraint on personal liberty" English governments have seen as necessary. Rather than permit individuals more scope to defend themselves, Prime Minister Tony Blair's government plans to combat crime by extending those "restraints on personal liberty": removing the prohibition against double jeopardy so people can be tried twice for the same crime, making hearsay evidence admissible in court, and letting jurors know of a suspect's previous crimes.

This is a cautionary tale. America's founders, like their English forebears, regarded personal security as first of the three primary rights of mankind. That was the main reason for including a right for individuals to be armed in the U.S. Constitution. Not everyone needs to avail himself or herself of that right. It is a dangerous right. But leaving personal protection to the police is also dangerous.

The English government has effectively abolished the right of Englishmen, confirmed in their 1689 Bill of Rights, to "have arms for their defence," insisting upon a monopoly of force it can succeed in imposing only on law-abiding citizens. It has come perilously close to depriving its people of the ability to protect themselves at all, and the result is a more, not less, dangerous society. Despite the English tendency to decry America's "vigilante values," English policy makers would do well to consider a return to these crucial common law values, which stood them so well in the past.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,402 • Replies: 19
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contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 12:12 pm
Gungasnake, since you continually confuse "England" and the United Kingdom, why should we take your views seriously? Or are they the views of whoever wrote the trash you cut and pasted?

Murder rate per 100,000 population (2004):

US 5.5
England and Wales: 1.62

Great Britain is consistently near the bottom of world violent crime leagues, and the US is consistently near the top.

Gun control saves lives. You're just too dumb and too biased to see it.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2007 08:10 pm
I seem to be having an easy time finding articles about England and its crime rates from 02 and I'm guessing that the present rates are so far off the charts that the data is being covered up or somethint. Apparently in 02 England was THE place to be for observing crime amongst all industrialized nations:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/12/01/ncrime01.xml

That's an English newspaper.


Quote:

England has worst crime rate in world

By David Bamber, Home Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 1:05am GMT 01/12/2002
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 12:26 am
Still churning out your crazy rubbish?

The Telegraph is a heavily biased extreme right wing British newspaper with a huge ax to grind. It is the paper of reaction that old men read. You should check the Independent or the Guardian to get some balance (Ever heard of that?)

Even the Telegraph felt obliged to include this

Quote:
Criminologists believe that a note of caution needs to be introduced into analysis of the data, because of the different ways in which UN member countries record crimes.


That is, folks, the people who know what they are talking about on the subject of crime rates say the figures should be taken with a pinch of salt.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your crazy ranting NRA trash.

You still haven't grasped that "England" and "Britain" are not the same thing, and you very rudely insist on ignoring any information you do not agree with.

Your notion that any crime data that does not fit your theory is part of a "cover up" just shows what a loony you are.
0 Replies
 
skilos
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 12:29 am
Guns don't kill people, People kill people!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 04:17 am
Yet another view on the (sad) subject....


http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_oh_to_be.html

Quote:
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 05:20 am
One thing we really love in Britain is ignorant dumb ass yanks telling us how to run our own country when

(1) They can't even run their own
(2) They don't bother answering points raised
(3) All they can do is copy and paste ranting crap from far right hate sites.

Go pound sand, gungasnake the troll.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 05:29 am
Quote:
The Scottish Executive has taken steps to seek powers from Westminster over firearms legislation.
[...]
"Firearms control is an issue which affects every community across the country and one the UK Government has retained a close focus on in recent months," he said.

"It is self-evident to say it is in everyone's interests to have effective legislation governing the circulation and use of weapons such as airguns in order to safeguard the public

Source: Powers sought over firearms laws
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 08:37 am
Couple of examples here regarding the kinds of crime which English authorities do and don't care about, or at least do and don't care MUCH about...

First would be murder... if English authorities give a rat's ass at all about anything involving murder cases it appears to be limited to protecting the murderers:

http://tinyurl.com/2rg9dj

Quote:

Headmaster's killer to get new identity

By Tom Harper, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 1:42am BST 26/08/2007

The government is preparing to give the killer of headmaster Philip Lawrence a new identity.

Learco Chindamo: Secret identity will cost millions
Learco Chindamo: Secret identity will cost millions

Under the plans, Learco Chindamo, 26, and his close family will be given new names and moved to an address away from London, where he grew up and where his mother, stepfather and brothers still live.

They would then be provided with 24 hour police protection via a panic button.

The media may also be barred from reporting details of Chindamo's new identity, what he does or where he lives. The cost to the taxpayer during the rest of Chindamo's life would run to millions of pounds.

The revelation will reignite the anger which erupted last week when a bid to deport Chindamo to Italy, where he was born, was rejected. Ironically, the Ministry of Justice, which is to appeal against that decision, would ultimately find itself responsible for ensuring the Chindamos' safety.

Mr Lawrence's widow, Frances, reacted angrily to the proposal, pointing out that the cost would dwarf the sum her family received from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority following her husband's murder.
advertisement
Telegraph - Menswear/Shoes

"I think that ordinary people will be outraged to hear that he will be afforded 24-hour police protection," she said.

Chindamo, who was jailed for life when only 15 in 1995 for knifing Mr Lawrence to death outside St George's school in Maida Vale, west London, has served 12 years in prison. He has applied for parole and could be released as early as January.

Past recipients of the type of protection under consideration include Mary Bell, who served 12 years for the murder of two young children in Newcastle in the Sixties.

Others are Jon Venables and Robert Thompson, the killers of Liverpool toddler Jamie Bulger, and Maxine Carr, the girlfriend of Soham murderer Ian Huntley.

When Carr was awarded lifelong anonymity in 2005, the Home Office estimated that it would cost £1 million a year to protect her.

In those cases, the Government decided that the risk of the individuals being attacked by members of the public meant that they required new identities.

A source familiar with Chindamo's case said: "The Government knows what the reaction will be if Chindamo is put into witness protection, which is extremely expensive.

"It is very, very sensitive. If it went wrong and he did something else, the political fall-out would be hugely embarrassing."

Despite claims by the Government that Chindamo was "a genuine and present and sufficiently serious threat to the public", an asylum and immigration tribunal decided that deporting him to Italy, where he lived until the age of six, would breach his right to a "family life".

The Ministry of Justice refused to be drawn on what protection measures might have to be undertaken for Chindamo after his release.

A spokesman said: "It is simply not possible to speculate further about what our future stance would be."

However, Harry Fletcher, assistant general secretary of the National Association of Probation Officers, said: "Due to the high profile nature of the case, it is inevitable that Chindamo will be relocated on release."

Meanwhile, David Davis, the shadow home secretary, criticised the Government's "incompetence" over the way it had handled the matter.

He said: "If the Government had fought a successful -deportation order, the cost would be a fraction of this massive expenditure."


Note that the English officials themselves use the term "witness protection program", but that nothing in the article even hints that this kid testified against anyone. This program appears to be a Murderers Protection Program of some sort.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 08:43 am
Then again, there is the sort of crime which English authorities apparently DO give a rat's ass about:

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jul/07072610.html

Quote:

Looney England Again - UK Police Increasingly Used as Thought Police to Enforce Political Correctness

14 year-old-student arrested and taken to police station after requesting move to class with students who speak English

By Hilary White

BRITAIN, July 26, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A few days before his election as pope, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger denounced a growing "dictatorship of relativism." The pope's rhetorical device, however, is increasingly becoming the lived experience of ordinary Britons visited and questioned by police for publicly expressing politically or religiously "incorrect" views.

In October 2006, the Daily Mail reported that a 14-year-old school girl, Codie Stott, was arrested by police and detained in a cell for three hours after she asked to be moved into a group of students who spoke English in class. Stott was denounced to police for "racism" by her teachers at Harrop Fold High School in Worsley, Greater Manchester.

Codie told police that she had been placed in a group of five students who would or could not discuss the class work in English. When she asked to be moved to another group with whom she could communicate, the teacher responded, "It's racist, you're going to get done by the police." A week after the incident she was taken to Swinton police station under arrest. Codie told the Daily Mail, "They told me to take my laces out of my shoes and remove my jewellery, and I had my fingerprints and photograph taken."

In May this year, a shopkeeper in Manchester was threatened with prosecution under the race hate statutes if she did not remove a number of soft toys that some consider racist in origin. Moira Pickering, 62, was told by police to get rid of her stock of traditional English dolls called "gollywogs". Gollywogs, based on a children's literary character created by Florence Kate Upton, have been a staple of British children's toys since the late 19th century.

Pickering told the Daily Mail, "I find sex shops offensive, I find cabbage patch dolls offensive, but I wouldn't report them. Golliwogs have been going for years and I've always sold them. They sell very well. People are far too politically correct they go over the top."

In early April this year, a father of a ten-year-old boy was astounded when two police officers arrived at his Cheshire home to question his son for calling another boy "gay" in an email.

"I could not believe what I was hearing," Alan Rawlinson, aged 41, told media. "They told me they considered it a very serious offence. I thought they were joking at first… [T]his just seemed a huge waste of resources for something so trivial. I am furious about what has happened, it just seems the politically correct brigade are taking over."

"If somebody had called the police about something like this in my day they would have laughed - they certainly wouldn't have sent two officers out. It is completely ridiculous."

Perhaps more ominously, accusations of direct interference by police with the electoral process for ideological reasons are starting to be heard in Britain.

The British National Party, a far right but completely legal political party, is preparing a package of evidence to present to the Electoral Commission alleging that this May, West Midlands police interfered in the Birmingham local election at the behest of opposition parties. The party alleges that the police cooperated with a campaign of intimidation when they visited and questioned each of the 400 people in the Birmingham ridings who signed nomination papers for BNP candidates.

The BNP, a nationalist party opposed to non-ethnically British immigration, has been at pains recently to shed its early association with white supremacists. But its opposition particularly to Muslim, African and Pakistani immigration, and its nationalist anti-EU position, has earned the BNP the status of most politically incorrect, and therefore most publicly vilified party in recent British history.

Some observers have said that the combination of racial tensions and violence springing from mass immigration in densely crowded areas, together with a growing police and media suppression of free speech have created fertile ground for the nationalist party that excludes non-racially British members and is known for its blunt and forceful condemnations of politically correct ideology.

This backlash may explain why the BNP took 20,000 to 30,000 votes in the Birmingham area, despite police questioning their supporters, arrests of BNP party volunteers and organised "anti-fascist" opposition. Last week the BNP moved into fourth place behind the three main parties in a Parliamentary by-election in Sedgefield, County Durham, the riding recently vacated by former Prime Minister Tony Blair.



Granted the girl only spent a few hours in a cell; when you invent new crimes you have to start somewhere and work your way up. God help the next kid who tries it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 08:44 am
gungasnake wrote:

Note that the English officials themselves use the term "witness protection program", but that nothing in the article even hints that this kid testified against anyone. This program appears to be a Murderers Protection Program of some sort.


Despite that you are unable to recognise the country, despite that you are as always an ...
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 08:56 am
He quotes approvingly the BNP, the Nazi British National Party. I think we know what kind of fascist troll gungasnake is.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 09:01 am
Certainly gunga is a NaSSi par excellence.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 09:07 am
Obviously none of you guys have any sort of a problem with arresting that little girl for wanting to be in a classroom where somebody other than her spoke English...

What if they'd flogged her (they almost certainly WILL next time or with the next kid) That cause any of you any problems?

What if they'd tied her to a log and started to run the log through the sawmill like in the old movies??

Is there some point at which anybody here might think something was too much for merely wanting to be in a classroom where anybody spoke English??
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 11:27 am
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/images/charts/1755.gif

British Crime Survey offences, England and Wales

Quote:
• The British Crime Survey (BCS) showed that there were 10.9 million crimes committed against adults living in private households in England and Wales, 8.4 million fewer crimes than in 1995. (Figure 9.1)

• Property crime accounted for the majority (73 per cent) of all offences recorded by the police in 2005/06 in England and Wales. (Table 9.2)

• The total value of all card fraud in the UK in 2005 was £439 million, a decrease of 13 per cent compared with 2004. (Page 117)

• The risk of becoming a victim of crime fell from 40 per cent of the population in 1995 to 23 per cent in 2005/06 in England and Wales, the lowest recorded level since the BCS began. (Page 119)

• In 2004, over four in ten juveniles in England and Wales re-offended within one year of their original conviction. (Page 123)

• Full-time equivalent police officer numbers in England and Wales reached record levels in 2006, with 167,170 officers on 31 March. (Table 9.21)
Latest information on police resources

Published on 11 April 2007 at 8:30 am


i'm sure gunga would very much like to post the official U.S. crime stats to show us the low U.S. crime rate .
should i hold my breath for his entry ? Shocked :wink:
hbg


ORIGIN :
BRITISH NATIONAL CRIME STATS
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 01:26 pm
gunga is a fascist troll, and facts are not going to make any difference to him. He prefers to hear highly biased accounts from the BNP of the racist schoolkid Codie Stott getting arrested for racially abusing fellow pupils.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 01:36 pm
still trying to hold my breath - but it's getting more difficult ! :wink:
hbg
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 08:30 pm
Anybody can lie with figures. There was a precipitous drop in overall crime in the US starting around 1995 due to the fact of abortions becoming commonplace 20 years earlier and I'd assume much the same thing happened in England.

What I keep reading about going through the roof in England is crimes committed with guns and knives and even the anti-gun crowd there admits gun crime has at least doubled sine the bans. In other words, the thing which increases is all the most gruesome crimes committed against individuals and nobody should need to be Albert Einstein to comprehend that government depriving the people of means to protect themselves is a major factor in this.

http://newsbusters.org/node/12267

Quote:

British Gun Crime up 242 Percent; Post Says 'Laws Seen As Curbing Attacks'
Photo of Ken Shepherd.
By Ken Shepherd | April 24, 2007 - 13:06 ET

Update below jump with related items from NewsBusters.

This morning, NewsBusters contributing editor Dan Gainor brought this Washington Post article to my attention:

"Britain's Gun Laws Seen as Curbing Attacks"

But the problem is that while anti-gun activists recited those talking points in Post foreign service correspondent Mary Jordan's April 24 story, the empirical evidence shows otherwise.

The number of crimes in which a handgun was used in England and Wales has risen from 299 in 1995 to 1,024 last year. Offenses committed with all types of firearms, including air guns, have also increased.

That's an increase of 725 gun crimes in 11 years, a 242 percent increase. Britain already had strict gun control before the 1996 Dunblane, Scotland, school shooting, and in 1997 both Conservative and Labour governments pushed through fresh gun control legislation banning small caliber handguns.

Jordan did note that gun fatalities are down at just 50 deaths in the U.K. last year from 55 in 1995, yet Jordan carefully inserted a caveat earlier in the same paragraph.

"According to government statistics, the number of people killed by guns has essentially stayed the same, with dips and spikes, as before the 1997 gun control laws went into effect," she wrote.

"Dips and spikes?" Perhaps like the spike in total homicides in England and Wales in the years following the 1997 gun laws? Homicides peaked at over 1,000 in the 2002-3 survey period. The number has since fallen to just above 1997-8 levels.

What about the oft-repeated meme that gun-free Britain is much less violent than the United States? Jordan doesn't raise that meme per se, but neither does she compare apples to apples. Has Britain historically been less violent, more violent, or similarly violent per capita to the United States? Jordan doesn't say.

The better comparison, in fact, is if Britain has become more or less violent since the 1997 gun laws.

The notion that it's become less violent doesn't wash according to data from the British government.

What about "possession of weapons." Surely arrests for illegal weapons is on a downward trend, right?

Wrong.

Related Items:

ABC News Trumpets UK's Handgun Ban

Lou Dobbs Notes Flaws in Gun Control

MSNBC.com Cites Unlabeled Anti-Gun Activist
ABC Poll Finds Twice as Many Blame Culture Over Guns, But 'World News' Spikes It

Howard Fineman to Democrats On Guns: 'You Gonna Do Something Now?!'
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2007 10:31 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Anybody can lie with figures. There was a precipitous drop in overall crime in the US starting around 1995 due to the fact of abortions becoming commonplace 20 years earlier and I'd assume much the same thing happened in England.


In the UK, the Abortion Act was amended 1967; before that, some kinds of abortion were illegal.

If that's your point ...
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2007 10:42 am
gunga writes :

Quote:
Anybody can lie with figures


and he goes on happily to trot out all kinds of numbers and stats . Rolling Eyes
anybody have any idea why gunga deals with figures at all , when he just stated : Anybody can lie with figures .
hbg(mystified - but not much Laughing )
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


from an extensive report by the U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE - see link below .

Quote:
The Nature of the Problem and Current Trends

In 1996 (the most recent year for which data are available), 34,040 people died from gunfire in the United States. Of these deaths, approximately 54 percent resulted from suicide, 41 percent resulted from homicide, and 3 percent were unintentional (see figure 2). Firearm injuries are the eighth leading cause of death in the United States. In addition, for every fatal shooting, there are roughly three nonfatal shootings.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

let's see now :
UNITED STATES
34,ooo deaths by firearm , 41% homicide = about 13,900 deaths .

BRITAIN
gunga's resource for states : "That's an increase of 725 gun crimes in 11 years " .

even accounting for the difference in population , the U.S. homicide rate would have to come down just a little bit more to get to the british level , i'd say !

SOURCE :
U.S. DEPT OF JUSTICE
0 Replies
 
 

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