Thomas wrote:sozobe wrote:I missed this one the first time around. What about those of us who were raised by one previously-Jewish atheist and one previously-Christian atheist, huh? Huh? ;-)
Such an enormous degree of faith promiscuity is just disgusting. Get your disbeliefs straight, woman!
sozobe wrote: (If there is a difference -- what difference, exactly?) I
This is a seriously fascinating question. I'd
love to figure it out, but so far I haven't managed to get beyond "I know it when I see it" territory. For example, most of the ex-Jewish atheists I met were members of the Jewish community in Hannover, Germany. My Russian piano teacher and her Russian husband were members of it. They were both hard-core atheists, but they took advantage of claiming Jewish nationality so they could leave Russia for Israel. (The Soviet Union categorized Jews as a nationality.)
Because many "ethnic" Jews in Russia pulled off this trick, Russian atheists soon swamped the indigenous and faithful Jews in Hannover's Jewish community. To the dismay of the faithful, they basically used the community as a club for meeting fellow Russians. During my time in Hannover, I heard many classical music concerts, attended many after-concert parties (which you don't have in regular classical concerts), but not a single prayer. The faithful were hardly noticeable; the only reason they weren't was that before each concert, one of them gave a speech along the lines of: "We Jews are cultivated people, as the coming piano evening with professor X from Vienna will impressively show again. And this is exactly why we must stand by Israel as they fight those barbaric Palestinian terrorists. And now, enjoy the concert" There was a short, embarrassing "ick" moment; then professor X from Vienna entered the stage, started playing, and all was well again.
Let me dig myself out from under an overly long introduction by fast-forwarding to twenty years later. That's when I first read you describe some of your favorite "Seinfeld" episodes. Although I hadn't watched any episodes myself then, and still haven't, your description of the characters immediately triggered the knee-jerk reflex: "Hannover! Atheist Russians in Jewish community!" This knee-jerk reflex is why I'm pretty sure about the instinct by which "I know it when I see it".
Sozobe wrote:Another thing that comes to mind is a Jewish idea I came across at some point, that Judaism (the religion) is about "ask, ask, ask," while Christianity is about "obey, obey, obey." One can see how atheism would fit better with the former.
Are you sure? I have often wondered how Jewish clergy react when you ask them about all those atrocious things God does in the Old Testament. Lutheran pastors predictably relied on the same cop-out. "Well, Jesus Christ eventually came along and upgraded all that, so don't you worry." Jewish theologians don't have that cop-out, so I'm at a loss trying to imagine how they'd respond, except "oh, shut up and don't monday-morning-quarterback your creator's work". Could you simulate a probable answer for me?
I don't believe the Seinfeld episodes were "supposed" to be depicting Jewish atheists. In the U.S., many Jews that are second or third generation born in the U.S. have moved away from the orthodoxy of the grandparents that came to the U.S. in the late 19th century, or very early 20th century.
So, the first generation born in the U.S. often became "Conservative" Jews which allowed for a more assimilated lifestyle (only wore a skullcap in synagogue, not all day). Their children (Seinfeld's generation) often moved farther from the fold, in that they became Reformed Jews (can "drive" to services on the Sabbath and don't have to adhere to the dietary laws), or just thought of themselves as "cultural/ethnic" Jews, without
practicing a religious adherence.
While the Jewish post WWII immigrants to the U.S. tended to be orthodox, of even Chassidim (they follow a Rebbe, wear the black garb of their faith), the bulk of U.S. Jews reflect the immigration from Czarist Russia back between 1880 and 1910, or thereabouts, and that's the Seinfeld population.
These are the American Jews that go to out-of-town college and might marry a Christian, since they may have very little identification with their faith or ethnicity. But, even amongst those that do identify with some degree of Jewish belief and ethnic identity, it is often not what drives their lives. What
might really make a lot of these Jews still Jewish is that they do not, for the most part, have any feeling for Jesus (as the center of Christian belief), other than being an historical figure.
There are some (not many I believe by percentage) that have joined Jews for Jesus, and believe they are Jewish and believe Jesus is their Messiah. That group I believe has ties to an evangelical Christian denomination.
Many non-practicing Jews, of the genre I described above (Seinfeld types) think of themselves as Jews from an ethnic point of view and do believe there is a God. They, therefore, are not atheists,
just non-practicing Jews. They feel Jewish, the way, perhaps, Germans feel German, but Germans also feel European (Germany is in Europe). And these non-practicing Jews feel Jewish, but feel that that ethnicity does not take away from feeling American. One is an ethnic feeling, the other is a national feeling, I believe.
In the U.S. there are very few people (by percentage I believe) that are truly atheists, regardless if they come from Jewish or Christian backgrounds. Many people from either background just feel there's a God, and he doesn't really get involved with us humans much these days. This attitude makes for an easy interaction between people, since once we get past the religious labels, many really believe the same thing. This is all only my opinion, so it can be argued, but I'd rather not.
