Any of You Desire to Pocket $250K?

This is a logical fallacy... it demonstrates nothing of the sort.

The problem is that he is the arbiter of the contest.

Evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt-- yet since he says it hasn't he doesn't have to pay out.

Natural selection has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. (Perhaps, IMO)

The same is not true of speciation, since the processes cannot be replicated.

Bad dog has proposed an irrelevant challenge.

I love his definition of "evolution"



You can't win it unless you can prove a negative.

If we could agree on an impartial moderator... I would be more than happy to pocket that $250,000 -- even with "speciation".

Unfortunately, the people behind this "challenge" don't consider the scientific community to be good judges of science.

Its a shame, $250K would be awfully nice right now.

Hmm! The article clearly states otherwise:

Many have responded to my offer of $250,000 for scientific proof for evolution. The terms and conditions of the offer are detailed very clearly on my web site www.drdino.com. Here are some answers to some commonly asked questions.

The offer is legitimate. A wealthy friend of mine has the money in the bank. If the conditions of the offer are met, the money will be paid out immediately. My word is good.
The members of the committee of scientists that will judge the evidence are all highly trained, have advanced degrees in science as well as many years of experience in their field. For example: there is a zoologist, a geologist, an aerospace engineer, a professor of radiology and biophysics, and an expert in radio metric dating to name a few. They are busy people and do not wish to waste time on foolish responses. Nor do they wish to waste time arguing with skeptics and scoffers who seem to have nothing else to do than ask silly questions when they really don't want answers (so far this has been the typical response to the offer). I will not reveal their names for this reason. Any legitimate evidence will be forward to them and they will respond. At that time they may identify themselves if they choose. The merit of the evidence presented and the reasonableness of their response does not depend on who they are...

and:

...Rather than simply sending in scientific evidence for evolution, some have wasted lots of their time and mine sending letters demanding to know who is on the committee, what bank account the money is in, asking Bill Clinton type questions about the definition of words like "is", etc. When I do not respond the way they want me to they post notices on their web sites claiming that I owe them the money or that the offer is a sham! It is obvious they are using the Red Herring tactic to draw attention away from the fact that they have no evidence to support the religion of evolution. I tell everyone who inquires, if you have some evidence, send it in, don't beat around the bush. Give us the best you have on the first try please to save time...

Sorry, baddog, the logical fallacy is on the part of DrDino..

More than one logical fallacy to be sure.

First, he redefines "evolution" to include quantum physics which it never has in the normal sense of the word.

Second, he requires proving that things happened without God, not just proving that they happened. He requires the proof of a negative. It is a logical fallacy.

Give me a break! This joker is hand picking a committee that will see things his way. The "qualifications" of this committee are irrelevant-- he is stacking the deck.

In a fair contest... with a panel of experts chosen from a representative sample of the scientific community... the $250K would be mine.

There are many scientists who believe otherwise. Google: "evolution, quantum physics" for examples.



The entire basis for evolution is founded on the proof of a negative and a logical fallacy. ie: Typical evolutionists start with the assumption that God has no involvement in this world, although there is no scientific evidence proving this to be true.

Suggestion: Stop looking for incidental reasons to discount his position and focus on the core. Evolutionists place their entire foundation on scientists and this guy is offering up a large sum of $$ for any evolutionist to convince scientists that evolution exists. Based on the general concensus around here - this little challenge should be a slam-dunk.

Kent Hovind ("Dr. Dino") who makes this offer is currently serving ten years in federal prison for tax evasion.

Once a conman, always a conman.

Hey ebrown, I bet if you sent your account information to him he would be happy to put $250,000 in it.

Well - there you have it!

Serves him right for using logical fallacies!!! :wink: :wink: :wink:

I am already getting $250,000 from the nephew of a Nigerian leader.

Baddog,

Two things make this a silly thread.

First of all... anyone with any sense knows that a bet settled by a panel hand picked by one side is a sucker bet. You couldn't prove that water is wet under these conditions.

This $250,000 isn't going to get paid off-- even if Jesus himself comes back to tell Dr. Dino that he is wrong.

Second of all.... the evolution debate is over. People will hang on to their beliefs until they die off, but the scientific community has seen enough evidence to accept evolution, and even Republican judges are on board.

This is a silly thread.

Dr. Who?

Hovind claims to possess a masters degree and a doctorate in education from Patriot University in Colorado. According to Hovind, his 250-page dissertation was on the topic of the dangers of teaching evolution in the public schools. Formerly affiliated with Hilltop Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Patriot University is accredited only by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, an accreditation mill that provides accreditation for a $100 charge. Patriot University has moved to Alamosa, Colorado and continues to offer correspondence courses for $15 to $32 per credit. The school's catalog contains course descriptions but no listing of the school's faculty or their credentials. Name It and Frame It lists Patriot University as a degree mill [3].




Claim CA341:
Evolutionists have been unable to claim $250,000 offered by Kent Hovind for proof of evolution.
Source:
Hovind, Kent. n.d. Dr. Hovind's $250,000 offer. http://www.drdino.com/seeArticle.php?artid=67
Response:
The challenge is set up so that it is impossible to meet it whether evolution is true or not. First, Hovind conflates many areas of science, including cosmology and abiogenesis, under his misuse of the word evolution. Second, he wants proof that the universe came from nothing, which is not known to be true (and which is not relevant to evolution). Third and most important, Hovind requires proof that "evolution . . . is the only possible way the observed phenomena could have come into existence." It is impossible to prove a universal negative. In fact, scientists already seriously consider alternatives for abiogenesis (namely panspermia).

Hovind's challenge requires proof that evolution (and other origins) occurred without God. However, evolution does not deny God, as Hovind himself acknowledges, and Hovind admits that it is impossible to disprove God. Thus Hovind himself implies that his challenge is flawed and impossible to meet ("David" 2005).

The judging is likely to be unfair. The judges are all picked by Hovind, so they are probably biased, and Hovind has refused to let unbiased judges judge a challenge (Kolosick n.d.). Hovind's hand-picked judges may well be unqualified, too, since Hovind does not have the background to judge qualifications. There is even evidence that the judges do not exist: An advertisement in Pensacola headed "Attn: Hovind's Expert Committee" received no responses (Vlaardingerbroek n.d.).

Hovind himself says he will not accept important evidence. He will not accept macroevolution in the form of speciation as evidence for evolution.

Several people have tried to collect on his challenge, only to get a runaround or to be ignored:
· Lenny Flank received only nonanswers when he asked Hovind to clarify what "fundamentally different kind of animal" means (Flank n.d.).
· Kevin R. Henke called to inquire about the terms that would be necessary to win the award. Hovind told him that the award could be collected by recreating the Big Bang. One of Hovind's staff members agreed that the conditions were technically unfeasible and financially impossible. Hovind was willing to offer $2,000 for proof that a dog and a banana have a common ancestor, but he backed out of this when it was required that the judges be unbiased (Kolosick n.d.).
· Dr. Barend Vlaardingerbroek corresponded with Hovind concerning clarification of conditions and matters of fairness and got a runaround. He learned, however, that Hovind reserves the right to throw out any evidence he does not like before the judges see it (Vlaardingerbroke n.d.).
· Thomas, trying to meet the challenge, sent Hovind a list of evidences. He heard nothing back ("Thomas" n.d.).
· Ian Wood sent Hovind some evidence for evolution and found that Hovind lied about submitting evidence to a panel of judges (Wood n.d.).
· Adam Kisby met Hovind's challenge on Hovind's own terms, logically disproving the alternatives Hovind listed. Hovind tersely dismissed the result without giving any valid objections (Kisby 2005). Though Kisby's proof may be flawed, neither Hovind nor his committee have looked at it enough to see any flaws themselves.

In short, the challenge is a fraud.
Links:
Pieret, John. 2002. Kent Hovind's $250,000 Offer. http://talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind.html
References:
"David." 2005. Hovind indirectly admits that his $250,000 Offer is impossible, and is flawed. http://true.wxcs.com/hovind/flaw-impossible.htm, transcribing an interview with Hovind on Truthradio, April 5, 2005.
Flank, Lenny. n.d. "Dr." Hovind, "created kinds", and his $250,000 "reward" . . . http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/hovind.htm
Kolosick, Jama. n.d. Kent Hovind's "$250,000 award to prove evolution!" http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/kent_hovind's_phony_challenge.htm
"Thomas". n.d. "Dr." Kent Hovind, http://www.geocities.com/odonate/hovind.htm
Vlaardingerbroek, Barend. n.d. Kent Hovind's bogus challenge (letter). http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/kent_hovind's_bogus_challenge.htm
Wood, Ian. n.d. Is Kent Hovind a liar too? http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/kent_hovind's_lies.htm

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA341.html

Hilarious read

Evolution is a trip.

It turns out that Inmate Hovind clearly has issues - however I still like the basis for his challenge. Some do not like the parameters he set so let's do a hypothetical. One where the "deck isn't stacked".

So, for those of you who onjected to the rules that Hovind set forth for this issue - what rules would you deem as fair and appropriate? If the $250K was still on the table - what rules would be "fair"?

I am in baddog. If you put up $250,000 and we provide a fair panel of scientists, I woul d be happy to take your money.

((to the others, please don't point out to baddog that there is a reason their is no fair challenge of this type))

Unless you stack the deck, evolution is already shown to exist.

1. can a species become a seperate species and unable to breed with other progeny of a common ancestor? (The answer is yes and it has been observed.)
2. Can you trace DNA to show common ancestors? (Yes)
3. Can you mathematically show that it is possible (and probable) for all life presently on the planet to arrive from a single cell billions of years ago?