WHO WAS PHARAOH OF EXODUS?

That's an open question, for which there are several answers. The problem is that there is no unambiguous evidence for the migration known as the exodus in the historical record; additionally, the ancient Egyptians, unlike the Semites and Aryans of the middle east to the east of Palestine did not commonly use captive populations or slaves on their monumental building projects--the entire story that the Jews were made captive to build a pyramid is, in the most charitable construction, unlikely to have been true.

You can read about who the Pharaoh of Exodus might have been by clicking here.

Setanta, is there any historical evidence of the disasters in Egypt that Moses said would occur, for example, the insects eating all the crops, all the Egyptian male firstborns' deaths, etc., even if there is no unambiguous evidence of the exodus?

Would the exodus be an invented story of the Jews? Why would they do that? And all that story of Moses talking to the Jewish God on the mountain and receiving the ten commandments seems so incredible, as well as the sea opening up in the middle, etc. One can wonder if anything the Jews wrote in the Old Testament has actually happened or not, especially if it is not corroborated by people in other countries. It seems to me that if the miracles had happened as the Jews said, that they would have been recorded by people who saw them, especially by the Egyptians who probably had the most advanced civilization at that time.

Someone did a nice job @wikipedia: Dating of the Exodus

There is no reliable historical evidence of which i know for any of the alleged "plagues." AS for why eh Jews would make up such a story, that would, of course, only be speculation. It is something about which i have thought, though (that is, the general topic of why people make up stories about their past). There are many legendary passages in the history of various natins which very likely hide a more unpalatable truth. The stories of Horatius at the bridge and Muscius Scaevola in Roman legendary history are examples of this, and were likely cobbled together by the Romans to hide the shame of being defeated by the Tuscans after the had succeeded in asserting their independence.

Before the exodus took place, Egypt was subjected to an invasion fro the east, by those known to history as the Hyksos. They dominated lower Egypt (the northern part of Egypt) for more than a century, and the evidence from names is that they were either Semitic people from "Canaan" or were Indo-Aryans who had overrun the northern middle east, and entered the region of the Nile delta from Canaan.

The Jews believed that they were descended from Abraham, himself a scion of the ancient city of Ur (in what is today Iraq). That would conform with the Semitic origins of the Jews. If the Jews were a part of the invasion of Egypt in the late 17th century BCE, or, what is more likely, they were a captive people brought to Egypt by the conquerors, then it is possible that a century or two after the end of the last Hyksos King, the Jews were expelled by the Egyptians. The Egyptians idd not commonly enslave other people, or use slave labor (or than in the sense that if the Pharaoh ordered it, peasants could be levied for a building project). It were possible that the Jews were a remnant of that invasion, either as participants, or as a captive population, and they were unceremoniously shown the door after the power of the Hyksos faded away.

So, they put together a story which shows them as an enslaved and brutally oppressed people, delivered by their god (it is important to remember that not all Jews worshiped Jehovah, and that the early passages of the bible are not exclusively monotheistic) with whom they had a special relationship. So, priests who are trying to promote this point of view (the Jawists), might have told as story of sorrowful captivity from which the Jews were delivered by a powerful god (who still, oddly, did not seem sufficiently powerful to make himself manifest to the Egyptians), through the agency of Moses, a Jew who had been raised as an aristocratic Egyptian. It sounds a lot better than simply having been treated as the trailer trash of lower Egypt, and having been run out of time n hard times when resources were scarce.

Once again, it's just speculation. But to assume that it must be true simply because you can't say for sure why someone would make up such a story is hardly a sound historiographic principle.

Can I ask what verses you refer to, when you say "passages that are not totally monotheistic"?

The earliest of which i know is in Genesis Chapter 3, in verse 22:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

But this thread is not about whether or not the bible consistently sees "god" as the only "god" (it doesn't), so if you want to whine about that, i suggest you go elsewhere--i'm not going to get in a pissing match with one of local christians, for whom i have little to no respect when it comes to discussing religious topics, based on your past performance.

Now Setanta, there wasn't anything whiny or disrespectful about my question. Why you gotta go off like that? I thought I'd heard or read something about the "plural" stuff in the bible, and thought I'd take advantage of your being so well-read, instead of lookin it all up myself. Dang, big dog - sometimes all that vinegar ain't even necessary.

By their fruits you shall know them, Bubba. If you and Intrepid had not devoted so much time following me around attempting to douse me with sewage for so long, i might not have been inclined to react as i just have.

I offer no apology, you made your bed on this subject a long time ago,

Do you reckon if I apologized for "following you around, and attempting to douse you with sewage" that I could not be attacked if I happen to comment in a religious thread you're in?

You don't need to apologize, because if any harm were done, it was to you and not to me.

I'm willing to accept that there is no ulterior motive in you asking me a question in a religious thread--at least unless and until such time as that sort of thing happens again.

Consider those past episodes forgotten.

Thank you, Walter and Setanta. The link is quite informative.

I am thinking if the Jews were conquered and brought as slaves to Egypt, how many of them could have been brought such that they did not have anybody left in their "country", unless they were simply small tribes.

I have never read in history that when a country A invades a country B, that the conquerors would export all the conquered people of country B to live in country A (where to put them and how to feed them). Maybe a few slaves, yes. They would usually be content to make the conquered people work in country B and receive free goods from them.

How was it determined that the present Israel is the country where they used to live in?

In fact, Boss, the forced migration of entire tribes of people was common in the ancient middle east, among Semitic peoples. The Egyptians were Hamitic people, to use a rather out-of-date term simply to distinguish them from the Semites. The Egyptians did not have a tradition of enslaving groups of people, while the Semitic peoples did. In fact, it was quite common for entire tribes to be forced to migrate to work on monumental building projects (huge temples, city walls, etc.). The Babylonian Captivity was very likely a real event. That is why i suspect that if the Jews ever actually were captive in Egypt, they were probably brought there during the Hyksos invasion, since that would have been a typical activity of the Semites, but not the Egyptians, and the Hyksos invasion was probably a Semitic invasion.

Not Boss, cello.

Interesting what you said. I obviously did not read history of that region. Lots for me to read about and learn. What you said made sense though, even if just a speculation.

If you wish to learn about the traditions in which the old testament was written, you might research the Jawists (also known as Jehovist) and the Elohist, which some scholars consider actually represented two different authors. Pesonally, i suspect they were more likely two different editors of the folk tales which were then popular among the Jews--but who knows. There cannot be said with any certainty to have been so many and no more and no less authors of the Bobble. A great many Jews were worshipers of Baal/Moloch, and the Jawist priests were eager to wean them away from that worship to the worship of Jehovah. Much of the comogony of the bible is based upon that effort to construct a coherent narrative to offer in opposition to the popular Baal worship.

After the Babylonian Captivity, the Pentateuch was revised, so even what we think we know about the bible and how it was written is uncertain.

Your knowledge is amazing, Setanta. The thing I like about you is that you always back up your statements with references. Thanks for the explanations.

Thanks, Boss. I don't always provide links, but i usually do check my work before i post. The main reason i know so much about this is that i began reading ancient history almost 50 years ago. But i usually do go out to check my recollection before i write. For example, before commenting on the Hyksos, i checked to be sure that my recollection was correct, and that he Hyksos invasion would have taken place before the likely dates for the exodus. It is always a good idea to check before posting.

Some other references in the bible that indicate a polytheistic past, before the dominance of the Yahwists are:

Deuteronomy 32:7-9

"Think back to the older days,
think over the years, down the ages.
Ask of your father, let him teach you;
of your elders, let them enlighten you:

"When Elyon gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided the sons of men,
he fixed their bounds according to the number of the sons of El,
Yahweh's portion is his people,
Jacob his inheritance."

Here there is reference to three separate divine entities, Elyon, El and Yahweh. The sons of man are divided among the different sons of El, Yahweh being one of them, to whom Jacob's inheritance, the Hebrews under him--the Israelites--is the portion allotted him.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/1999-January/001237.html

Jeremiah 7:17-18

Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44:17

... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ...

Scholars believe that the "queen of heaven" referred to in these passages is Asherah who herself is referred to in artifacts found at several archaeological sites in Palestine and the southern Levant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#Asherah_poles_in_Biblical_archaeology

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/berlinerblau6.htm

It is not something i'd be willing to argue. I consider it improbable, but no one, including me, has any historical evidence that any of it took place. Therefore, no one, including me, can say what did or did not happen.

It would be one of those fights where my dog an i would just walk by.

EDIT: This was wrtten in response to a post by Snood, which now seems to have disappeared. Somebody cue the spooky music.

No doubt that it is a good idea, especially since this is a knowledge forum and not just a chat to pass the time. However, you answer so quickly I can barely keep up with your responses.

You have been studying history for 50 years? I would say history is a fascinating subject and I like to learn about different civilizations and cultures also, especially the ancient ones, however I have not spent a lot of time to study them. I only have minimal general knowledge from some readings. Are you writing or thinking of writing history books or books on religions, Setanta?