right to pray

Yeah, right.

I don't know c.i., he's really stuck his neck out on this one!

I know, I know....

No assumption needed, dys. I am definitely a Christian. BTW, I consider human dignity and respect to be core values of that religion, despite the failings of some of its followers.

I would agree that dignity and respect are important values for all human beings, though, regardless of the source.

It's become my philosophy of life as a atheist to treat all living things with respect and dignity. I may fail some times, but comparatively speaking to the rest of the world, I feel I'm doing 'better than average.' That's sufficient for me. c.i.

I have often wondered why those who must have some kind of religious ceremony before a high school game, don't insist that we have the same thing when the Red Sox meet the Yankees at Fenway?

Here now is Father John O'Sullivan with the invocation:

"Our Heavenly Father, we ask you to look down in favor on these poor boys from Boston and to help us smite the unworthy pinstriped invader and to wipe the first-place smirks off their infernal pusses. Send down thy angels to protect our beloved and holy RedSox from their deliberate, murderous bean-ball throwing pitchers and send the winds of Heaven to make their hitters swing like the monkeys they claim to have evolved from. If it be thy will. Amen."

I gotta add this:

One of the problems I have with fundamentalist Christians (like the writer of this essay seems to be) -- and their notions about what they should be able to do in this regard -- is pretty much summed up in something the writer said:

"Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. "

To the best of my knowledge nobody in the United States is trying to get people to stop praying. They can pray all they like in their churches, their homes, their bedrooms, their backyards, at friend's homes -- and silently at ball games; assemblies; and in the classroom if they choose.

But lots of people -- not just a handful -- do not want praying or any other kind of hoping -- made an official part of general population public gatherings.

Why is that so unreasonable?

And if it is not unreasonable, who do so many people create straw men by wording the siutation the way the writer of this essay did?


One last thing -- an iteration of something I mentioned earlier in the thread.

The writer said: "Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing."

Well, let's just take a look at what the Bible actually does tell these good folks to do with regard to praying.

This is what Jesus had to say about praying. It is found in Matthew Chapter 6, verses 5 and 6:

"When you are praying, do not behave like the hypocrites who love to stand and pray in synagogues or on street corners in order to be noticed. I give you my word, they are already repaid. WHENEVER YOU PRAY, GO TO YOUR ROOM, CLOSE YOUR DOOR, AND PRAY TO YOUR FATHER IN PRIVATE...."

So if this guy is so interested in doing what his Bible tells him to do -- he would be joining hands in cooperation with the people he now holds in such scorn.

Well I've been quiet through all this for a reason. I'm not a fundamentalist as I'm sure many of you know. I'm tolerant perhaps beyond what is merited. Nevertheless if a group wishes to express their belief in prayer (as opposed to being ordered to pray), I'm not only willing but give both tacit or vocal approbation to that display. I have seen first hand and been amazed at the depth of feeling that some people have for deeply felt convictions to be celebrated this way. If all this is done in a manner that invites but does not demand joining I say it's their right and should be borne or admired depending on your own convictions.

My feeling for religion is not in this manner. As I've stated on other threads I do not share with others what I feel as a belief as too often it leads to confrontation rather than enlightenment. So I go one and one with my God and ignore the need to share with others what I believe. If invited I'll discuss it but I do not seek out others opinions nor try to sway others to my belief.

whatever.

Bobsmyth, we would get along just fine!

I beleive in the right to pray anyplace, anytime, just not over a loudspeaker in my face. I don't see that as being unreasonable.

That is not unreasonable at all.

Hi Eva:

I'm sure many people think I'm advocating making religion an integral part of everyone's life and foisting it on everyone within earshot. That's not so. You are one of the few who seems to get it. If it were a native American tribe, Muslims praying to Mecca, Buddhists et al and I happened to be there it would not offend me. Thanks for the kind words.

Prayers are not less effective for being said silently. That's what I advocate -- positively no prayers aloud in public. Not a legal restriction, just a form of politeness to the rest of the community. But I can well understand those who, when they see others being rude in this fashion (loudly and aggressively declaiming their prayers in a public place -- which happens frequently in the Bible Belt), would like to see a law restricting. Not me. I prefer silent prayers -- they show respect for others. Laws only in extremis.

The opening statement made me angry for a variety of reasons. Primarily this one:

> "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the
> > United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.
> >
> > According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all
> > others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect -- somebody
> > chanting Hare Krishna?

This statement suggests that the United States is a Christian country. I had no idea that there was a state religion. I had no idea that the majority was empowered to impose its views on others. Why must my Jewish or atheist or Muslim friends be forced to listen to a Christian prayer? In fact, why must anyone in this country be forced to listen to any prayer?

I cannot understand, why atheists should be bugged with the fact of Christians' praying to God. If they do not believe, they should just ignore these prayers, they do not contain anything offensive toward non-believers (take, for example, the central prayer of Christianity, "The Lord's Prayer" ( aka Pater Noster); it does not contain any references to atheists, agnostics or people of non-Christian faith at all). But atheistic sermon is pointed against God the Christians worship, therefore the latter may get insulted by it. The situation is not symmetric, as it can seem.

streissd
It is because Christians are not content to merely say their prayers in public. They have a way of coercing your actions, seeking thought control. Being allowed to pray on the mike at public gatherings is just a first step in that dierection. I do not need their "guidance" and in fact would become quite hostile to have it forever pushed on me.

respect is reciprocal, the imposition of one group over another demeans both. the united states is not a religous state ergo the majority do not rule the minority no matter how righteous they believe they are.

Christianity requires missionary activities. For us it means assistance in salvation to the other people. But if you do not believe in the very existence of God and are not seeking for salvation of your soul, you may ignore our prayers and sermons. Unlike Muslims, Christians do not coerce anyone physically (at least, since 19th century). And verbal persuasion may be disregarded by the people that do not consider it being valuable and significant.

one more freakin' "missionary" shows up at my door, he is going to walk away limping