The Abortion Thread

Let's look at it from a legal standpoint.

Is the unborn a person with a right to life? Ok go...

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Not without the mother.

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Bartikus wrote:

Let's look at it from a legal standpoint.

Is the unborn a person with a right to life? Ok go...

See...this is the hard part for me....not so much because of what I believe...but I can't make you take on my theology. Life means something to me. The fact is...there is no more amazing thing than the development of a baby in a womans body. I am a Christian and I do believe that life comes from God. He knew this baby would be created. He knows his or her name his or her purpose and has a plan for that little life. I am amazed that in just a couple of days 8 cells go to 100 - at 6 weeks - about the time a woman is finding out that she is indeed pregnant ths little baby has the beginnings of eyes and ears...it is intentional and fast moving.

That is my emotional basis...and I stand by it wholeheartedly.

Does this child have a right to life...absolutely - it was created.

I think the question most pertinent here is whether you believe it is a baby when it is conceived or not. And here is where it bogs down every time.

And perception is what makes this so frustrating. A woman in her early 20's aborts a baby because she is not at a good place and hates to have her young figure stretched out of shape and carry a child to term when she has no intention of keeping it. This same girl gets married at the age of 28 and gets pregnant and miscarries a week sooner than she aborted her previous pregnancy. She is devastated because she lost her baby. Did she consider it a baby when she aborted it the first time? Probably not...she didn't want to because it made it easier for her to clean up the consequences to an action she took. So what made it a baby the second time she conceived? The fact that she was prepared and at a place where she could care for it and love it?

That doesn't wash with me. It was a baby the moment it was conceived...it was well on it's way to life with her or someone else who desperately wanted a child and it got snuffed because it was inconvenient.
That is selfish and irresponsible. We love to have our fun but don't want to carry the responsibility of the consequences of our actions. It is easier to call the baby a fetus...because it allows us to emotionally seperate ourself from what we do not want to bare.

Okay....I know - not legal...here goes my try...it will be lame.

The child was conceived and is well on it's way to the promise of life. 100% of the childs genetic makeup was determined at conception...It is a distinct organism...the beginnings of a child from the moment it is conceived. When a woman chooses to have sex she understands that there is a possibility - no matter how small, that she can become pregnant. Her and her partners actions created a child. This child deserves to be given the chance to live.

The same argument used to support abortion - "it is a woman's body and it is her choice to rid herself of that child if she wants " can be used to support making it illegal. " The woman who chooses to have an illegal abortion has made a choice, it is her body and she knew the possible consequences of her actions."

I am sure I botched this badly...I was all over the place...having a hard time focusing tonight...probably just should have booted the whole effort!

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You have done well, mismi. No doubt the pro choice crowd will have you for lunch.

Don't take it personally.

There are many who agree with you.

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Your personal moral beliefs...

That a woman has the right to control her reproduction.

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The legal aspects of abortion...

I live in a country where abortion is legal. Our society decided back in the sixties that legal and available abortion is more acceptable than Monday morning emergency wards full of young women butchered by Sunday back yard surgeons.

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What role individuals, church and the government play in the discussion...

The only individuals who should be involved are the parents and the medical staff. The church should have zero role to play. Anyone who knows me knows what I think of religion. Not only are they a bunch of delusional losers, but the last time I checked they weren't elected. I'd be happy if they were all classified as terrorist organisations and outlawed. Governments make the laws, but in this country, there is absolutely zero chance that any law regarding abortion will be changed in my lifetime.

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Science and Medicine...

Apart for performing the procedures? Again, they don't make laws. And their not the individuals that have to carry the child for 9 months.

I'll go no further except to say that 6 weeks ago my wife gave birth to a perfect, healthy, beautiful baby girl. I absolutely adore her, and she's already got me wrapped round her little finger. And having her has not changed my opinion on this issue in the slightest.

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"In 1940, the National Center for Health Statistics confirmed just 1,313 deaths from illegal abortions, most of them from infection. As antibiotics became available and surgical techniques improved generally, abortion-related deaths fell sharply: 159 deaths in 1966, forty-one in 1972, the year before Roe." This was prior to abortion being legalized. All things considered....murdering 1.3 million babies per year (current number) vs. less than 50 women in 1972 dying from having illegal abortions and probably much less than that if abortion were never legalized...well - there is just no comparison. These women who made choices to abort their babies and more than likely knew their chances were at best risky for a problem occuring but decided it was worth the risk not to have to carry that child to term...all along knowing that sex sometimes does cause babies and yet they do not have to deal with the consequences? There are very few of us that lucky when we do something we know has a chance of a bad outcome.

I had a Grandaddy - He was old - really old. He had alzheimers. He did not know me...he hit me when he was angry - not meaning to and hurt me, he was heavy and I had to help change him and clean him. I had to clean his g-tube when he couldn't eat anymore. I was 21 years old. I helped my Mom care for him because I was a member of the household and felt it was my responsibility. This was not a consequence of something I had done. My young life was spent caring for him for 2 years. Now - the fact is - he was miserable. You could see it in his eyes. He had no real appreciation for life. My only reaction from him was anger and toward the end not even that. Now...he no longer had any understanding of his situation. We were both pretty miserable and I could not kill him. It would be murder. And he is clearly at the end of his life with no chance of recovery. I wouldn't have wanted to do it...he was my Grandaddy...but the point being...

Women - who are liberated and who can do what they want with their bodies cannot carry a baby to term? They can have sex when they want but do not have to deal with the consequences of their choices? They can murder a child because it is inconvenient. Of course it is their body. But the fact is - they are carrying a baby, and had part in making it. They knew what they were doing and the chances of what could happen. And yet - they can murder that child. It seems a little screwy to me that a child at the very beginning of it's life hasn't got the protection he or she needs to be able to make it out of a selfish mother's womb.

My Grandaddy...not aware...no hope of life before him....do not murder. A baby - not aware - hope of a wonderful life before him...murder it if it is not convenient. The geography of being in the selfish Mom being the problem here. It is a waste. And it is heartbreaking that others can't see that...

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Abortion is murder, who is any woman to play god ? its the same as "I'm fed up with my neigbours, lets murder them", pro-abortion people are just people who can't handle the guilt of previous decisions.....

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BDV wrote:

Abortion is murder, who is any woman to play god ? its the same as "I'm fed up with my neigbours, lets murder them", pro-abortion people are just people who can't handle the guilt of previous decisions.....

Worst comparisson possible. Murder has a societal consequence, abortion does not.

mismi40 wrote:

Women - who are liberated and who can do what they want with their bodies cannot carry a baby to term? They can have sex when they want but do not have to deal with the consequences of their choices? They can murder a child because it is inconvenient. Of course it is their body. But the fact is - they are carrying a baby, and had part in making it. They knew what they were doing and the chances of what could happen. And yet - they can murder that child. It seems a little screwy to me that a child at the very beginning of it's life hasn't got the protection he or she needs to be able to make it out of a selfish mother's womb.

What's even worse is the protection we offer after the child is out of the womb. I have yet to see a compelling arguement from the anti-choice crowd as to why the government should have lincence of the choice and not the mother. BTW, Your post seems to trivialize the complication of pregnancy. What you casually refer to as "inconvieniance" is often a lot more than that.

Sure a mother had a part in making a baby, but I don't see anybody racing to make criminals out of the men who vacate out of "inconvieniance." If more men were held to the same moral attack that women are, we might have fewer single mothers. Fewer single mothers means fewer mothers choosing to abort.

It's not about taking away choice from our mothers. It's about enabling our mothers to chose to keep their child.

The pro-life stance is facism.
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Diest TKO wrote:

BDV wrote:
Abortion is murder, who is any woman to play god ? its the same as "I'm fed up with my neigbours, lets murder them", pro-abortion people are just people who can't handle the guilt of previous decisions.....

Worst comparisson possible. Murder has a societal consequence, abortion does not.

So it OK to murder an unborn child ? hmmm double standards.... Abortion has had societal consequence in every society where it has been introduced, degrading, dehumanising and undermining the importance of life. All abortion does is strip a human being of its right to live.

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BDV wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
BDV wrote:
Abortion is murder, who is any woman to play god ? its the same as "I'm fed up with my neigbours, lets murder them", pro-abortion people are just people who can't handle the guilt of previous decisions.....

Worst comparisson possible. Murder has a societal consequence, abortion does not.

So it OK to murder an unborn child ? hmmm double standards.... Abortion has had societal consequence in every society where it has been introduced, degrading, dehumanising and undermining the importance of life. All abortion does is strip a human being of its right to live.

I think you lack the understanding of what a societal consequence is. quite to the contrary of your contrived and unsupported claim, the legislation in to make abortions illegal has had a greater societal consequence.

When abortion is illegal, we have monday surgeires for sunday backyard proceedures.

Your atempt to equate murder with abortion is naive at best.

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According to the next article "Dr. Bernard Nathanson former director of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws" lied about the number of deaths due to illegal abortion, so they could get the law through. (Bit like passive smoking debate today)

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I confess that I knew that the figures were totally false and I suppose that others did too if they stopped to think of it

The real figures actually showed an increase.....

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A powerful debating point is to explain to your audience that for 1972, the year before Roe, the federal Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reported 39 maternal deaths from illegal abortion. Those 39 mothers and their 39 children were very real tragedies that should have been prevented by providing support and care for the mother and her unborn child. The number 39 however is a far cry form those exaggerated figures of thousands, even tens of thousands, used by abortion advocates in their cause.

It is also important to remember that women today still die. They die from so-called "safe" and legal abortions. According to the CDC and the Alan Guttmacher Institute (a "special affiliate" of Planned Parenthood) over 200 women have died from legal abortions since 1973. These numbers are also cited in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, vol. 171, no.5 (November 1994), pp. 1365-1352. Common sense would also suggest that it has never been in the abortion industry's self interest to report all the deaths from legal abortion.

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/responseargument4.html

... but of course you don't want to hear that. I know someone who murdered 7 innocent people for a so called war, yet to this day makes up excuses of to why he should have done it, he will never admit his guilt as it will destroy him, the same with 1/4 of women in the so-called western world, who have done the same act.

The psychological effects of an abortion are so well documented, that psychologists have grouped them under one name: post-abortion syndrome (PAS). Women may experience symptoms of PAS right after the abortion, but oftentimes PAS does not manifest itself until many months or years after the abortion.

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BDV wrote:

but of course you don't want to hear that. I know someone who murdered 7 innocent people for a so called war, yet to this day makes up excuses of to why he should have done it, he will never admit his guilt as it will destroy him, the same with 1/4 of women in the so-called western world, who have done the same act.

The "so called western world?" What does that mean? Think about this. 45 million abortions happen every year. 20 million of which come from countries where abortion is illegal. That's only a margin of 5 million. It becomes obvious that the legal status of abortion means nothing. Legal precedant shows that moral imperative does NOT side with the anti-choice lobby.

honestly, I'm for reducing the number of abortions. I just happen to be smart enough to know that success is not about the legal status or abortion. If 1/4 of women are doing this, you have a pretty big arguement to take on that 1/4 of the female population is criminal. Further you have an even harder ethical issue of separating the decision of a single mother from that of the father that vacates.

BDV wrote:

The psychological effects of an abortion are so well documented, that psychologists have grouped them under one name: post-abortion syndrome (PAS). Women may experience symptoms of PAS right after the abortion, but oftentimes PAS does not manifest itself until many months or years after the abortion.

The APA has found no scientific basis in PAS. Anti-abortion pundit and former US surgeon General Koop was given the task of investigating PAS, and also concluded that it was unfounded.

Go to http://KPBS.org/abortion for more on PAS etc.

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Well heres the figures for abortions both legal and illegal

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp333pd.html

The site has plenty of figures to ponder over, but it seems the rates in the US (23.9%) are way below the likes of russia (52.5), but reported abortions (Both legal and illegal) are no way near as high in countries where it is banned. Some as low as 0.02%, most about 5-10%.

Maybe laws should be changed to stop women making such rational decisions so easily, which end in the destruction of an innocent life.

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BDV - Your source does not provide information of which countries it is illegal and which it is legal.

Again I'll ask you: Do you believe a quarter of women are criminal? if in Russia the percentage is more than half what then?

How about you start answering some of my questions.

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Diest TKO wrote:

I'd like to continue discussion and be able to discuss all related matters.

The only thing that matters is this:

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Scott777ab wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
I'd like to continue discussion and be able to discuss all related matters.

The only thing that matters is this:

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

ABORTION IS MURDER.
ABORTION IS MURDER.

I assure you that much more matters than just

YOUR OPINION.
YOUR OPINION.

Abortion is abortion. Murder is murder. Saying they are one and the same is simplistic juvenile thought at best, but most likely just recycled rhetoric.

I'm still waiting for a anti-choice person to make a convincing case that abortion needs to be illegal.

There's a reason they can't.
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Diest TKO wrote:

I'm still waiting for a anti-choice person to make a convincing case that abortion needs to be illegal.

Abortion need to be illegal first and foremost because it is murder.

What ( ( ( RIGHT ) ) ) does any one have for MURDERING an innocent baby even before it is born?

NONE

There are plenty ways to keep from getting pregnant even in the case of rape. And even in the case of rape, if the woman was to become pregnant the question still remains, " WHAT RIGHT, does she have to MURDERING an innocent baby before it is born.

The answer still remains.

NONE

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This subject is like so many others. The only way you can see the others point is to live it somehow. And that is not always possible. But it is interesting to me that if someone who really believes that abortion is murder had an abortion - they cannot get away from their guilt because of it...no matter what the reason...worse if it had nothing to do with rape or the mother's life. And I know women who are sorry they had an abortion and are also burdened with guilt about a baby they had aborted. Especially those who later for whatever reason find they cannot get pregnant again. I have never known a woman who went on to have a baby and keep it or give it away for adoption say they were sorry they didn't have an abortion. That certainly is no legal basis but it makes me wonder why?

There is no scientific measure for this...it is just something I noticed from growing up around gals who have had abortions and others who had their babies.

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Re: The Abortion Thread

Scott777ab wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
I'm still waiting for a anti-choice person to make a convincing case that abortion needs to be illegal.

Abortion need to be illegal first and foremost because it is murder.

Abortion lacks malicious intent, has no societal or cultural repurcusions unlike murder. They are not one and the same, not by a far stretch of the imagination.

Scott777ab wrote:

What ( ( ( RIGHT ) ) ) does any one have for MURDERING an innocent baby even before it is born?

NONE

The Unborn has no rights, until birth, the mother is custodian of those rights. Who has the right to make any and all desicions about the unborn: The mother; NONE OTHER.

Scott777ab wrote:

There are plenty ways to keep from getting pregnant even in the case of rape. And even in the case of rape, if the woman was to become pregnant the question still remains, " WHAT RIGHT, does she have to MURDERING an innocent baby before it is born.

The answer still remains.

NONE

Mute point. The circumstances of how someone gets pregnant are irrelavant to the fact that the mother is custodian of the unborns rights.

Mimsi - You never responded to my post about the claim of PAS and the very clear stance by the APA that PAS has no scientific basis. As for the people you have met that have had abortions, and have felt remorse, I'll believe they are sincere about their grief, but unfortunately their grief means very little in terms of the larger picture. Remorse is not characteristic of the emotional landscape of women who have had abortions. More women experiance more extreme emotional/psychological responce to the unplanned pregnancy, NOT the abortion. Relief is more characteristic of what most women report.

I make no claim that abortions can be done for poor reasons, I certainly wont defend every abortion that has ever happened. What the Anti-choice camp forgets is that the Pro-choice stance is NOT about having more abortions. I'm for lowering the number of abortions, and keeping the liberties of our citizens intact.

40 million abortions happen every year. 20 million happen in countries where it is illegal. You do the math. Criminalizing women has nothing to do with fixing the problem. Better social programs, better tax credits for single mothers, after school programs, universal health care, and other legislative measures will better enable a mother to say "yes."

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The Abortion Thread

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