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Objective Knowledge

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 06:35 pm
Quote:
Varzi says that metaphysics is subject to logical analysis


No he doesn't !

In other papers he even goes on to discuss the merits of alternatives to classical logic such as "fuzzy sets" and arrives at

Quote:
The moral is that it is impossible to draw a line between vague and precise concepts just as it is impossible to draw a line between bald and hairy people. If we actually try to stipulate it away, our stipulations will themselves be made in less than perfectly precise terms and the regimented language will inherit some of that vagueness. So if vagueness is incompatible with classical logic, classical logic is ultimately inapplicable to ordinary thought and language. So much for the normativity of classical logic.


The metaphysical assumptions behind our actual use of logic are connected with naive realism of statements about the precise assignment of "objects" to sets according to "properties"i.e. "objectivity" but in essence such assignment depends on agreement as to common purpose or paradigm. Just as normative mathematics such as "3+3=6" cannot always be applied to "reality" (boiling times for eggs for example) nor can normative logic.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 08:28 pm
Fresco, it makes good sense to me that, as you say, "[T]he metaphysical assumptions behind our actual use of logic are connected with naive realism of statements about the precise assignment of "objects" to sets according to "properties."
It would also seem that for the most part the application of logic to descriptions of the relations between "objects" of the world is ontologically naive. As I understand it, logic is useful to order our STATEMENTS about the world but it is not an instrument for the description of that world. The "logical relations" between objects rests on the false assumption of the actual existence of "things." Closer to reality is the notion that all so-called objects are actually internally complex processes, coming in and out of a moving and never complete existence. Once we have rendered processes into objects (turning "becoming" into "being") we can then talk--within the framework of naive realism--about relations between "static" (but fictional) A and B. In reality, language and logic do not permit us to mirror the nature of processual (and non-dual) reality. But logic does enable us to speak in a consistent manner about the relations between our fictional "things."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 08:38 pm
Logic cannot be used in all cases, but it helps us to understand standards of consistent thought. The old Greek philosophers used examples that shows how logic in communication can be used to help with "logical" thinking. A = all humans are mammals. B = John is a human. C = John is a mammal. There are some standards of agreement that we can all relate to. Logic is a tool that helps us organize our ideas that we can call "truths." It's not a perfect system, but that's all we humans have.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 08:44 pm
Yes, C.I., and I am not depreciating it. One needs not to think and speak ILLOGICALLY. I'm just saying that it is not the end-all for philosophical understanding and description of our experience.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 01:34 am
One authoritative source for the change of status of "logic" is Wittgenstein's own shift from his "Tractatus" in which "language" was originally deemed to be "pictures" of "the world" (of truth). His later shift to language as a communicative activity (languaging) in essence undermined such writers as A.J. Ayer who saw "metaphysics" as being vacuous because it was not anchored in "the world". In other words Wittgenstein implies "truth" is not "objective" but a function of the consensual activity of commentators....and this exactly mirrors the state of affairs in physics even though Wittgenstein does not seem to refer to this himself.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 08:06 am
fresco wrote:
Quote:
Varzi says that metaphysics is subject to logical analysis


No he doesn't !

Yes he does!
Achille Varzi wrote:
After all, insofar as logically valid reasoning must be truth preserving,logic must tell us something about truth. It mustn't tell us whichsentences are true; but it must tell us what it takes for a sentence to be true. It mustn't tell us what are the truth-makers of a sentence; but it must tell us what the truth-makers of a sentence must be like. And as such logic has a lot to do with metaphysics.

In other words, if logic tells us what makes a sentence true, then it tells us what makes a sentence about metaphysics true. Thus, metaphysics (or metaphysical statements, which amounts to the same thing) are subject to logical analysis. QED.

fresco wrote:
In other papers...

I am so sick and tired of this shell game that you play, fresco. If there's a quotation out there that supports your position, cite that quotation, not some other quotation that doesn't say what you want it to say. Cripes, do you even read what you copy and paste?

fresco wrote:
... he even goes on to discuss the merits of alternatives to classical logic such as "fuzzy sets" and arrives at

Quote:
The moral is that it is impossible to draw a line between vague and precise concepts just as it is impossible to draw a line between bald and hairy people. If we actually try to stipulate it away, our stipulations will themselves be made in less than perfectly precise terms and the regimented language will inherit some of that vagueness. So if vagueness is incompatible with classical logic, classical logic is ultimately inapplicable to ordinary thought and language. So much for the normativity of classical logic.


The metaphysical assumptions behind our actual use of logic are connected with naive realism of statements about the precise assignment of "objects" to sets according to "properties"i.e. "objectivity" but in essence such assignment depends on agreement as to common purpose or paradigm. Just as normative mathematics such as "3+3=6" cannot always be applied to "reality" (boiling times for eggs for example) nor can normative logic.

Sounds like more question begging, a la Kosko. But since you didn't include a link to any of Varzi's writings, I have no opportunity to determine if that's the case or not.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 09:04 am
Joe
Oh no it doesn't Smile !

Read above in the quote

Quote:
It is precisely because of its metaphysical commitments that Aristotelian syllogistics, for example, was eventually deemed inadequate as a canon of pure logical reasoning


And I've even spent time finding an applified reference for you.

http://www.columbia.edu/~av72/papers/Rovereto_2003.pdf
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 09:45 am
No, no, no. Just because a sentence is logical, it doesn't prove it is true; only that it is consistent.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 09:53 am
Yes, C.I., but can it be illogical and true? In the normal "universe of discourse" it cannot, but in other--e.g., mystical communications--it can. Indeed, that (non-logicality) may be a requirement of its effectiveness. To be adequate it must "transcend" the limitations of the ordinary rules of thought, especially as those ordinary rules rest on a faulty metaphysics of a world of "things" and "opposites."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 10:04 am
My life doesn't consider "extraterrestrial" spirituality's of the mind or soul. I only believe in the simple truth of what I consider life and death. I don't put any effort into learning how to achieve "nirvana." I'd rather spend my time in activities over sitting for hours in meditation. I enjoy the beauties of our planet and universe, and take pleasure in meeting and communicating with people. I also enjoy some "quiet" time, but most of those doesn't exceed a few hours, and it's not necessary to experience on a "regular" basis, and not even once-a-week.

I try to squeeze out as much life as I can during what lifetime I end up with. That's quite enough for me!
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 10:08 am
fresco wrote:
Joe
Oh no it doesn't Smile !

Read above in the quote

Quote:
It is precisely because of its metaphysical commitments that Aristotelian syllogistics, for example, was eventually deemed inadequate as a canon of pure logical reasoning

Wow, you really don't read the articles that you cite:

Achille Varzi wrote:
Because all metaphysical theorizing takes place in language (or about language), and because logic is to a great extent a theory of language, metaphysics can hardly get off the ground without the help of logic.... What counts as metaphysically possible, or as metaphysically necessary, should still be defined within the constraints of logic, so the notions of logical possibility and necessity should be as wide as possible and should not rule out any prima facie metaphysical options. In this sense, it is logic that comes first, and logicians should beware of any metaphysical biases that may surreptitiously enter into the picture. Our coin has two sides: To be a tool for metaphysics, logic must be metaphysically neutral. But when it comes to metaphysical theorizing the tools of logic cannot be neutral on pain of falling into the hermeneutic trap. The final slogan, then, is this: Metaphysics comes first, as long as logic is already there.


But this is all a waste of time unless you spell out the reason why you've cited Varzi (except to display your inability to understand Varzi, which I could have anticipated solely on a statistical basis). I'm much more interested in your response to JLN's question, in which, it appears, JLN has lost interest but in which I have not.

JLNobody wrote:
Is this why you appeared to have conflated epistemology (an aspect of which is logic) with metaphysics (statements about what is)?

Your answer?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 10:20 am
Joe, I didn't lose interest. I think it was meant it as a rhetorical question. I'll check that out when I return from my morning walk.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 11:54 am
Joe,

For you indolence="disinterest". You need to read the whole article. You have cherry-picked one side of Varzi's coin !

As for JLN's "question" ( which you appear to raise merely to do a bit of infantile "stirring") I have already explained that my placement of "logic" in "metaphysical tool-box " complies with the simplistic definition I cited for "metaphysics being about why we know". In other words we might be able to "know" a conclusion by arguing logically from "premises". The epistemological "problem" arises when inferences from "classical logic" are shown to be empirically fallacious . (For example the distributive law of classical logic has been shown to be inappropriate in quantum mechanics). So whereas the "problem" is epistemological (what we do or don't know) its "solution" may be metaphysical ( what e.g "we" and "know" and "apprioate tools" mean). There is obviously an incestuous relationship between the three areas of epistemology, metaphysics and ontology, and nit-picking about labels tends to be counter-productive.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 05:24 pm
Fresco, Smile
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 06:32 pm
fresco wrote:
Joe,

For you indolence="disinterest". You need to read the whole article. You have cherry-picked one side of Varzi's coin !

One side? That's Varzi's conclusion. There are no other sides.

But that's my last word on Varzi until you can explain his relevance to this thread.

fresco wrote:
As for JLN's "question" ( which you appear to raise merely to do a bit of infantile "stirring")...

Not at all. JLN identified a serious error on your part, and, for once, I agree with him. If you can't tell the difference between epistemology and metaphysics, then I think that will go a long way to identifying the reason why you are so consistently and tenaciously wrong in your philosophical views.

fresco wrote:
... I have already explained that my placement of "logic" in "metaphysical tool-box " complies with the simplistic definition I cited for "metaphysics being about why we know". In other words we might be able to "know" a conclusion by arguing logically from "premises". The epistemological "problem" arises when inferences from "classical logic" are shown to be empirically fallacious . (For example the distributive law of classical logic has been shown to be inappropriate in quantum mechanics). So whereas the "problem" is epistemological (what we do or don't know) its "solution" may be metaphysical ( what e.g "we" and "know" and "apprioate tools" mean). There is obviously an incestuous relationship between the three areas of epistemology, metaphysics and ontology, and nit-picking about labels tends to be counter-productive.

How does your epistemology allow you to make any empirical claims?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 09:37 pm
Must "empirical claims" be absolute in order to have merit? I can't see why if we accept that empirical claims are verified through the accumulation of appropriate and sufficient evidence in the world of experience.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 10:02 pm
That would depend on what "evidence" you're talking about. I think there's a danger in "appropriate and sufficient."
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2007 01:11 am
The epistemology I favor is the "systems approach" of Capra which owes much to the genetic epistemology of Piaget. Such a position encompasses the the interdependence of observer and observed whose separation can be accommodated but at lower levels of nested systems.

Such an approach has been adopted by Maturana (et al) in biology to account for some of the empirical results associated with the autoi-mmune system. Also, an interesting epistemological issue is the status of "language" in this approach ...namely as "communication about communication". I am attracted to this because it agrees with Wittgenstein's independent views of language as "action" and the fact that Piaget had already pointed out that "logic" was merely one aspect of "semantics" utilized in some adults thought processes. Indeed it is the artificial status of "disembodied words" separated from "action context" on which traditional logic operates. In the "flux" there is only relative set membership which delimits logic to particular "language games". And herein lies relevance of Varzi to this thread with his particular misgivings about "logic" which Joe has failed to comprehend.

Quote:
(within cited article)
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2007 07:55 am
fresco wrote:
The epistemology I favor is the "systems approach" of Capra which owes much to the genetic epistemology of Piaget. Such a position encompasses the the interdependence of observer and observed whose separation can be accommodated but at lower levels of nested systems.

Does that mean that the separation of observer and observed is purely a heuristic device?

fresco wrote:
And herein lies relevance of Varzi to this thread with his particular misgivings about "logic" which Joe has failed to comprehend.

Quote:
(within cited article)

Well, it took you five tries, but you finally got the quotation that you wanted. Or did you? Is this it, fresco? Is this the last quotation that you're going to settle on? Or are there more? I'm sure you can understand my suspicion, given your constant bait-and-switch tactics, that there's some other Varzi quotation waiting in the wings just in case this one doesn't work. I just want to make sure that you've settled on this one as the quotation that supports your position.

Because, of course, it doesn't.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2007 10:19 am
Joe,

All the quotatations support my position irrespective of your selective excerpts from them. Varzi writes in in the style of "traditional philosophy" which Wittgenstein did much to usurp with his concept of "language games". As such Varzi pin-points the problems of traditional logic and also some arguments for its retention. In this way he no doubt keeps on board some of the traditionalists whom Wittgenstein tends to send packing.

Genetic epistemology involves dialectical as opposed to Aristotelian logic and resolves dualities at one level by reference to the next level. (Hegelian synthesis). I do not intend to elaborate further because your "sport" of sitting by the water hole of others like an eskimo with a harpoon doesn't interest me. If on the other hand you wish to constructively read something about the subject you might start with say:

http://www.enolagaia.com/M88Reality.html
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