ethics and moral philosophy

Kant thought so.

Let me see.

Cultures of all kind have established that one is not suppose to lie.

BUT (emphasis mine directed to some "friends of mine" in these forums) a Chinese story might justify the act of saying a lie as the right thing to do.

The story is about children of a household who never knew what "danger" means, because they were never exposed to this concept by any means.

One day, part of the house was on fire, and the children were inside watching the flames consuming that part of the building. and neither by instinct these children were afraid of the calamity.

People cried to the children about the dangerous situation, and that if they don't leave the building they will perish by the flames. The children heard the people's arguments and ignore them. They kept the door and windows locked.

An old man, watching the whole tragedy, speaking loud enough to be heard, told the children that he had with him delicious snacks for them, and that they can come out to picked them up.

The children did so, and when outside, they were hold so they can't return back to the building.

This fiction Chinese story justifies that lying is "good" sometimes.

Kant claimed he thought so, but he was lying.

I don't think this is true. Lying is acceptable, and sometimes encouraged, in many cultures including our own.

Uh?

And, who was him/her? Your parents? Your teacher? Police? The judge? Who taught you that lying is acceptable and even encouraged?

I tend to favor SITUATIONAL ethics. Ultimately, we must select among moral principles to deal with specific situations. Morals, it has been said, are frozen ethics. Perhaps it can be said that ethics are matters of applied morality. To extend the metaphor, the morals are thawed and applied. In any case I do not see us as validly applying moral principles in any easy or automatic way. Thought and discernment are always necessary.

Yes, there's one principle that stands the test of time, all cultures, and religions.

Treat all living things with respect and dignity.

This is often not applied to strangers. The principle of reciprocity, however, is more likely to be found universally which is perhaps one reason travelers to foreign lands try to introduce themselves by means of trade (gift exchange), a great way to establish some degree of trust and exchange.

Respect letting survivors burying their dead? I think even mafia does it.

You tell lies Carlos. When you were a child, you realized that your parents sometimes told lies. That is how you learned that lying is acceptable.

It was the same with my parents.

I haven't found that to be true. I have traveled all over this world, and I have never been treated badly.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what is going on "in your culture".

Telling lies is something that by ethics "is not supposed to be done".

The same as driving over 25 miles speed "limit". By culture, this average speed is the one regulated by most of the countries of the world when driving in the city, specially in residential areas close to downtown. When is not in miles, in kilometers is [I think) 45km per hour.

You can observe that people do not respect fully the speed limit, and this is not an acceptance that passing over the speed limit is right, and less something to be "encouraged".

Then, people tell lies of course, but such is not what parents "teach you", on the contrary, you were told to tell the truth by parents, teachers, instructors, police, judges, spouse, etc.

By ethics, you are not supposed to tell lies.

Lets use a hypothetical example:



And the worst in the hypothetical example, is that when I say the truth, all the hypothetical liars go against my words and also against my person.

Oh my oh my....what kind of "culture" you are portraying here....

In my case, even if I might have told a lie or a million lies in the past, sorry but I won't consider them as acceptable and less as good as to be encouraged.

Perhaps for you is a "normal thing" to accept lies and encourage their spread around, but I don't want to be part of that kind of culture... I don't have to... thanks but no thanks.

You might be right, and I believe you.

I think that it will be different next time you travel around the world, and you go places without shaving, (I don't say without taking a bath), dressing used clothes, not using credit cards neither traveler checks, presenting yourself as a poor person in a club or expensive hotel, and so forth.

Check if any difference in courtesy from people and employees.

This one got a chuckle out of me,

In my other life, I used to work as a field auditor for Florsheim Shoe Company. We were allowed to stay in some of the best hotels in most cities, and in Seattle, I used to stay at the Olympic Hotel. This was back in the sixties when men wore suits and women were dressed up and even wore fur coats. Other than my work hours when I wore a suit, I wore casual clothes.

I took my family on vacation to NYC in 1982, and I asked my older son where he wanted to eat. He said a French restaurant, so with our casuals on, we went to a French restaurant where the patrons were all dressed up. We were treated just fine, thank you.

I now travel frequently with a 'regular' group and we cruise frequently on Oceania. No tux or suits required, but my travel buddy likes to dress up on 'formal' nights and when we eat at the specialty restaurants. They call it 'classy casual,' but I never worry about the clothes I wear. We're doing a cruise at the end of this month to the Caribbean.

I've never run into any problems because of the clothes I wear.

I said "as a poor person" and your example is "casual wear".

Go places were no one knows you are a tourist, dress poorly and without saying anything just get into an expensive hotel.

I enjoyed once watching the following scenario. This is 13th street NW Washington DC lots of years ago. A fine restaurant.

A black dude came in with the girlfriend. He was - as you have said- dressing casual clothes., the same as the woman. They first were taken to a table almost in the middle of the restaurant. They received the menu order.

At that moment, a group of very well dressed people came to the restaurant and were seated in one of the sides of the room. When receiving the menu, one of the guys called the waiter and said something to his ear. The waiter went around the restaurant, and approached later to the couple seated in the middle of the restaurant. The waiter asked them in a very polite manner if they accept moving to another table, and he show them one behind a decorative column.

The black dude gave a look to the group of the other tables, and the place the waiter asked him to move. The guy accepted it.

When he was there, he ordered the most expensive wine, and the most expensive plates. The wine was brought and tasted, and the salad and food came together later on.

This guy didn't touch any food and drunk no wine after the taste, but very polite as the waiter, he excused himself saying that he has changed his mind and that he will go to another restaurant. He and his companion left the place.

And, of course, neither the waiter or the manager tried to stop him.

Maybe racism, maybe discrimination because the way they were dressed, but there was no reason to move that couple because the tables in the middle of the restaurant continued empty for a long while, and no reservation notes were over them.

You might have been welcomed everywhere because people know you are a tourist, and they may see "business" in you, not so a "friend".

I think 'poor person' clothes doesn't really describe much - except for extreme conditions like one might find in India.

My buddy and I travel to Cuba often, and the majority are very poor (the average income is $20/month), but we don't see people wearing rags. No more than what I've observed in the US or any developed countries.

You're really talking about a different time and place. When I was young, many whites used to tell me to "go back to your own country." I'm third generation American; where was I supposed to go?

I also understand that racial bigotry is alive and well - especially against Blacks.

Since I graduated from college, I've never had any problem at hotels, restaurants, bars, or anyplace else. I'm not the neatest in clothing, but that never became an issue.

Why would I dress in rags to go into a public place just to prove a point that doesn't need to be proven.

Are you a racial bigot?

No, but you live in a different world where you as a tourist can't see much but smiles around you because you mean business.

Currently, there are towns in the southern States which are owned by families. I have a family member who traveled from place to place all around the country promoting educational stuff in different institutions.

Traveling and passing thru one of these towns, he was in need to rest. He was told to present himself to the owner of the place. After doing so, and telling the reason of his visit to the town, he received a welcome standing for that night.

As night was starting, he went to the only bar in that town. He had some drinks, found new friends, and everything was great.

Seeing that he must wake up early next morning, he left the bar while going to the rental place. Here is when he noticed that the bar had another entrance door on the other side of the street, and he also noticed black guys going inside.

The bar had a division wall separating the local in two parts, one for whites and one for blacks. This happened no more than ten years ago.

You might say that I'm inventing the story, but this is how I heard it when he returned from his trips.

So, the culture in the US has changed a lot in cosmopolitan cities, the same changes are perceived in cosmopolitan cities of the world which receive all kind of people.

However, do not expect the same in the interior of the US or of any other country... they might not tread you the same... you might be disappointed...

Your anecdotal stories are meaningless. When I returned from Morocco and landed at Charleston, SC, in 1958, a small group of us went to the Y to take a shower. That was a time when toilets and water fountains were segregated white/black. Nobody bothered me.

Your idea that just because I'm a tourist and that's the reason I get treated well is about as ignorant a statement I've heard in my entire life. It has nothing to do about being a tourist. It's about being served in the service industry around the world; some are better than others. Restaurants and hotels have different ratings for 'service and quality.' It doesn't matter whether you're white, green or blue. People rate them accordingly.

I speak from experience - having traveled around this planet the equivalent of 30 times; over 200 countries and 90 unique countries. My opinions are from experience; not from anectdotal, third-hand, stories.