Speciesism

Re: Speciesism

Because most people can tell the difference between torturing an animal and killing an animal in as humane a manner as possible.


Because most people understand that humans have rights that animals simply don't possess.

I will not eat any species which can beat me at chess.

Joe(not as hard as you think)Nation

Re: Speciesism


I agree; my question assumes as much. But why is one considered wrong while the other is not? Why does anyone who considers it okay to exploit and/or kill an animal also oppose subjecting an animal to torture?

Re: Speciesism

You're asking why people don't treat different things as if they were the same. My response is that it's because they're different things. Why is that difficult to understand?

Re: Speciesism
I am? How about this then--Do you eat hotdogs? If so, then would you also be against torturing whatever animal(s) they use to make hotdogs? If so, why?

Am I still doing it?

Let me start over.

(I'm thinking.)

I am having trouble making a claim against "speciesism" because it seems to me that the burden of proof should be on those who would defend "speciesism". I know this is incorrect; like I said, I'm having trouble. So, in the meantime...

echi: you may want to begin by explaining why you think there is some equivalency between the treatment of humans and the treatment of animals. Perhaps start with Bentham, who said: "the question is not, Can they [i.e. animals] reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being?"

Not a moment too soon!

Joe - never mind Jeremy Bentham, his calculus is far too advanced for the poster here.

Do you, Echi, grasp the difference between killing an animal in the fastest, less painful way possible, and torturing it?

If not I hope never to meet you in person - am a superb shot and life member of the NRA - as I might not be able to restrain myself

Re: Speciesism

Why are you using the word "understand" here, thus taking for granted that the conjecture is correct? Why aren't you using the word "believe", which leaves this point open? After all, the conjecture does seem to be the core of your disagreement.

Re: Speciesism

Understand, believe, hold, maintain, posit, claim, accept ...

Take your pick. I find your distinction largely unimportant.

"grasp" as in "begreifen" might be preferable, Thomas.

Glad we cleared that up, Joe

***

No, High Seas: If Joe's conjecture is wrong and the legal killing of animals is indeed morally equivalent to the killing of people, then there is nothing to grasp -- only something to wrongly believe.

But Joe said the distinction doesn't matter to him, so I won't dwell on it any further.

Thomas - the distinction was the one among the various verbs, not the animals vs. humans; and Joe's statement isn't by any means identical, or even equivalent, to summary you provide.

Sorry this is so long, but here is my view on speciesism, in case anyone finds it to be of interest...

I agree with the speciesists when they argue that favouring humans over other animals is a prejudice similar to racism or sexism. But I also think that speciesism is perfectly natural, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. In fact, I don't actually believe in right or wrong (if you want to know why I'll need a seperate thread to explain). I don't even believe that racism is wrong. Nor do I believe that it is right, I must emphasise. Racism is absolutely stupid and motivates extremely cruel behaviour, and I do not support it and I wish it didn't exist. But that's just a fact about what I want, not about what 'should' or 'should not' happen.

I don't have the same wants when it comes to speciesism, because I am a speciesist. I like to eat animals, so I do. I think it's perfectly natural to be a speciesist; evolution has 'programmed' us (and other animals) to favour our own species. Racism is perhaps natural to some extent too, but I also think there's something natural about overcoming racist tendencies. I think we've evolved to have empathy for other human beings, and I think that once you understand that members of other races are human beings with thoughts, dreams, troubles etc. just like yours, it's natural to have empathy for them. And naturally, I don't think we find it easy to empathise with other species in that way. It's difficult for us to empathise with an insect. And that isn't because we are somehow morally deficient; it's because that's how evolution works. I don't know how many genes we have in common with a spider, but it must be a relatively small number. And our selfish genes are in competition with their selfish genes, so naturally we are quite happy to wash spiders down the plug hole.

If there is an evolutionary basis to racism, then it is an example of something that we are programmed to do/feel, but which we are able to overcome. Different races are capable of getting along with each other, despite their genetic differences. And I'm sure that we could overcome our speciesism if we tried hard enough. But what for? I think that our empathy for people of other races motivates us to challenge racist tendencies and strive for a non-racist society. And that's great... we want something (we care about other humans and we want them to survive and be happy), so we try and achieve it. Good for us. Not everybody strives to overcome racism, but I'd argue that those people just haven't quite managed to understand that other races are human beings just like us; they lack empathy for them.

But so so many of us just don't really care about other animals, depending on the species. Certainly not insects, and perhaps not other non-mammals. We tend to see mammals as cute, possibly because they share a larger number of genes with us - especially chimps. But if a chimp attacked your baby, you'd kick it in the head, and I don't think you'd feel too guilty about it afterwards. Anyway, I'm rambling. Basically, I think it's natural to not give a damn about other species (or most other species) - more natural, and more ingrained in our evolutionary psyche, than any tendency to not give a damn about other races.

I therefore think it would be much harder for everybody to overcome their speciesism, and treat animals as equals, than it is for us to overcome racism. And since, as speciesists, we don't really care much about animals in the first place, why should we bother? We gain something from overcoming our other prejudices like sexism or racism; we gain friendships, we learn from each other, we fall in love etc. It feels good to not be sexist or racist. But insects piss us off, there's no denying that. What could we possibly gain from not boiling all the ants?

Are you retarded?

I suddenly lost interest in this thread.

Ditto, Joe, but do keep in mind it takes one to tell one <G>

Hey, joe--
I appreciate your help. I am researching and considering your advice.

I do not appreciate High Seas' trolling expedition. I didn't start this thread for that purpose, however I am not above responding in kind to such attacks. Anyway, my question to HS was not entirely facetious.