When has religion irked you personally and why?

maliagar wrote:

Craven de Kere wrote:
So is the beginning of the Bible wrong? The 7 days and all?

Wrong question.

Here's some homework for you to do on Labor Day:

(1) Review of what type of discourse can we say that it is "right" or "wrong", with respect to what, and in what senses.

(2) Study what types of discourse (literary genres) we find in the Bible.

(3) Arrive to your own conclusion on what books of the Bible can be said to contain "right" or "wrong" statements, with respect to what, and in what senses.

Cut the Bull, I don't need homework to know you are weaseling out. Is the Bible fallacious when it says that God created the world in 7 days or not? You don't want to give a yes or no answer so you do your usual blustering.

That's your homework assignment for the whole weekend. Come up with a straight (it will be hard for you) answer to that.

maliagar wrote:

[I've said many times that your faith is built around a specific metaphysics and epistemology... I wonder if you even know the meaning of those terms, and how they relate to the three points above (homework)...]

You say many things many times Maliagar. Ad nauseum is just another fallacious tactic in your very predictable arsenal.

Since we are now giving out homework assignments how about coming up with less fallacious debate strategy?

If you want pointers on the specific tendencies you have and methods you use to avoid questions and slip fallacy into rhetoric I can provide them to you.

maliagar wrote:

Quote:
Pssst, we are all here "for free"...

[Shhhh.... Me too. Tell that to C.I. Shhh...]

Nope bud, I'm telling you. Nobody else was arrogant enough to say, repeatedly, that they should charge for their lessons.

It's stuff like that athat makes people laugh when you say others have sinned for being proud.

maliagar wrote:

Quote:
you might consider that the rest of us might not have as high an estimation of your 'contributions'...

By now I'm fully aware of the things you're able to appreciate, and the things that... well, are just beyond you.

Maliagar, veneration of your logical fallacies is indeed beyond me. As is French kissing a donkey. This is another fallacious 'emperor's new clothes' tactic. You are big on tactics and short on substinance.

maliagar wrote:

You might also consider that my opinion of my own contributions does not depend on the votes of this particular crowd... :wink:

That is self evident. It's not just a different drummer it's a whole different band. Lone voices and all.

maliagar wrote:

Quote:
So now, pray tell, how do you fit evolution into the Bible?

No need to fit. Two very different discourses. Compatibility is explored at other levels (theology). Do your homework, and then we'll talk.

:wink:

I've done my homework. Answer the question. Please be more subtle when you are evasive.

Here is the question again:

The Bible says that God created the universe in 7 days. Do you consider that a fallacious assertion?

0 Replies

hey maligar try this one on for size:
Ego autem, cum mihi molesti essent, induebar cilicio. Its from the Vulgate in case your interested.

0 Replies

Craven de Kere wrote:

Cut the Bull...

Getting impatient here?

Quote:

i don't need homework...

You need desperately to do your homework. The problem is that you don't see it.

Quote:

Is the Bible fallacious...

A fallacy is a very specific thing... and as you've probably heard, the Bible has all kinds of discourse styles... not all of which can be analyzed using those categories.

Quote:

...when it says that God created teh world in 7 days or not.

Wrong question. Not your fault, though. It is a common question in a culture that has been heavily influenced by 19th century positivism and U.S. folk fundamentalism.

Here's something for you to start figuring things out: Is Romeo wrong when he says that Juliet is the most beautiful woman in the world? Is Shakespeare's Hamlet right or wrong?

Craven wrote:

maliagar wrote:
[I've said many times that your faith is built around a specific metaphysics and epistemology... I wonder if you even know the meaning of those terms, and how they relate to the three points above (homework)...]

You say many things many times Maliagar. Ad nauseum is just another fallacious tactic in your very predictable arsenal.

Again: do you know the meaning of both terms, why they apply to your own very personal faith, and how they impact your reading of the Bible?

Quote:

Nobody else was arrogant enough to say, repeatedly, that they should charge for their lessons.

Actually, I normally do charge for my lessons. But here, I devote my time and energies for free (as in my parish).

craven wrote:

maliagar wrote:
Quote:
So now, pray tell, how do you fit evolution into the Bible?

No need to fit. Two very different discourses. Compatibility is explored at other levels (theology). Do your homework, and then we'll talk.

I've done my homework.

It doesn't show. Do it again (please read well-known respectable academics, and not some folk interpreter from the heartland). Check the relationship between scripture and theology.

Quote:

The Bible says that God created the universe in 7 days. Do you consider that a fallacious assertion?

I couldn't. If you do your homework, you'll see why.

:wink:

0 Replies

little wheel spin and spin
big wheel go 'round and 'round.

0 Replies

maliagar, When talking about novels, it's okay to compare Hamlet to anything written in the bible. It's definitely a case of comparing apples to apples. However, when you claim anything to be wrong, you must also show what is correct. No free pass. However, I'm not so sure that Craven is asking about Shakespeare.

0 Replies

maliagar wrote:

Craven de Kere wrote:
Cut the Bull...

Getting impatient here?

Yes, I like my B.S. in smaller doses.

maliagar wrote:

Quote:
i don't need homework...

You need desperately to do your homework. The problem is that you don't see it.

You are correct, I do not see the need for me to do homework so that you can answer a simple question. You are also correct in that your tactic is to say it's everyone else problem. That would be the personal drummer thing.

maliagar wrote:

Quote:
Is the Bible fallacious...

A fallacy is a very specific thing... and as you've probably heard, the Bible has all kinds of discourse styles... not all of which can be analyzed using those categories.

My advice about being more subtle when copping out would have been well applied there.

Again, the Bible says that God created the world in 7 days. Do you believe that?

It's a simple question about whether you believe it. It will be hard to evade.

maliagar wrote:

Quote:
...when it says that God created teh world in 7 days or not.

Wrong question. Not your fault, though. It is a common question in a culture that has been heavily influenced by 19th century positivism and U.S. folk fundamentalism.

Here's something for you to start figuring things out: Is Romeo wrong when he says that Juliet is the most beautiful woman in the world? Is Shakespeare's Hamlet right or wrong?

You make this too easy. Romeo and juliet are ficticious. Can the same be said of God?

Again, the Bible says that God created the world in 7 days. Do you believe that?

maliagar wrote:

Again: do you know the meaning of both terms, why they apply to your own very personal faith, and how they impact your reading of the Bible?

Yes. Now please answer the question.

maliagar wrote:

Actually, I normally do charge for my lessons. But here, I devote my time and energies for free (as in my parish).

We all charge for something. That doesn't mean that that fact is something we use to cop out of a question.

maliagar wrote:

It doesn't show. Do it again (please read well-known respectable academics, and not some folk interpreter from the heartland). Check the relationship between scripture and theology.

We spoke about the 'read this tome' tactic in debate long ago. Tactics without substance fall flat.

You do not need me to do anything in order to answer a question:

Again, the Bible says that God created the world in 7 days. Do you believe that?

maliagar wrote:

Quote:
The Bible says that God created the universe in 7 days. Do you consider that a fallacious assertion?

I couldn't. If you do your homework, you'll see why.

:wink:

Yes you can, I fully support your efforts to answer a question about your beliefs.

Again, the Bible says that God created the world in 7 days. Do you believe that?

You are gonne run out of evasive tactics, might as well cut your losses and answer.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

When talking about novels, it's okay to compare Hamlet to anything written in the bible. It's definitely a case of comparing apples to apples. However, when you claim anything to be wrong, you must also show what is correct. ... I'm not so sure that Craven is asking about Shakespeare.

I'm not the one claiming anything to be right or wrong. Craven is asking IF I consider the creation story (7 days and such) to be right or wrong.

And my response is: Not applicable. As it wouldn't be applicable to Shakespeare either.

Now, do you understand why it wouldn't be applicable to Shakespeare? And if you do, why it wouldn't be applicable to Genesis?

If you do understand both things, please explain it to Craven.

If you don't, then the two of you need to do your homework.

:wink:

0 Replies

Shakespeare wrote fiction. Are you claiming the Bible is fiction?

0 Replies

waiting for maliagar's answer............

0 Replies

Craven, surprisingly, threw this out...

Quote:

Shakespeare wrote fiction. Are you claiming the Bible is fiction?

I will emphatically state that, yes, the bible is fiction.

0 Replies

I agree, but Maliagar would rather repeat the ole homework ploy than answer.

0 Replies

:wink:

Shifting your questions, Craven?

First you ask if the first 3 chapters of Genesis are "wrong" (which assumes that those chapters CAN BE wrong).

Craven wrote:

So is the beginning of the Bible wrong? The 7 days and all? ...

Then you ask about the way I fit evolution in the Bible (which assumes that I care about having both things fit).

craven wrote:

So now, pray tell, how do you fit evolution into the Bible?

Then you ask if the Bible is being fallacious about the creation account (which assumes that the first 3 chapters of Genesis CAN BE fallacious).

craven wrote:

Is the Bible fallacious when it says that God created the world in 7 days or not?

Then you ask four times about my own beliefs, as if you had posed this question before:

craven wrote:

Again, the Bible says that God created the world in 7 days. Do you believe that?

You do need to do your homework (not only on what the Bible is, but on how to ask a question).

Craven de Kere wrote:

Shakespeare wrote fiction. Are you claiming the Bible is fiction?

Bingo! Finally! At last! (it took a while, though... not a good sign for someone who claims to have done his homework...)

You're getting just a tiny bit closer, Craven. (it is always good to hang out with me... you'll learn something).

I claim (well... the true specialists on these issues - the ones you've obviously not read) that foundational poetic myths and other forms of human expression of basic realities (literature, art) can have multiple layers of meaning. And multiple layers of meaning cannot be simply reduced to "right" or "wrong" statements (as the univocal natural sciences try to do). That's why we have whole fields devoted to interpretation (exegesis, hermeneutics).

[BTW, your questions are soooooo rooted in your metaphysical and epistemological religious beliefs...]

:wink:

0 Replies

even tho the pope spoke, we're waiting for maliagar's labored answer.

0 Replies

I'll retract that last statement -- it was impulsive. I'd better read this thread before I start jumping to conclusions. (regarding Craven's statement)

0 Replies

oooops! The pope retracted his answer.

0 Replies

not the first time, heh?

0 Replies

Folks...I've been following all this nonsense and I got to say...

...Maliagar is not especially good at this apologetics stuff. Amateurish would be the word I would use -- although chicken, as I have noted in the past, also works.

He's toying with you -- and frankly, that is all he has to offer.

I think by now, several of us have come to realize that he is a one man wrecking company for the Catholic Church -- doing more harm to that institution than some of its most dedicated enemies are able to manage. For those who don't particularly cherish the Catholic Church, this may be all they can hope for.

He will never deal with -- nor honestly respond to -- anything that shows his position for the weak sister that it is.

Time spent interacting with him could more usefully be used to sort socks.

Good luck with your efforts -- but you won't get this guy to pony up when it comes to the real difficult stuff. He's a runner!

And as I said earlier, at best he is merely a footnote in the history of A2K.

0 Replies

:wink:

The Pontiff has issued his last word.

All is said and done.

It is written.

It's time now for his congregation to follow through.

:wink:

0 Replies

maliagar wrote:

:wink:

Shifting your questions, Craven?

Nope. :wink: .

maliagar wrote:

First you ask if the first 3 chapters of Genesis are "wrong" (which assumes that those chapters CAN BE wrong).

Yes, they can be wrong. If they say God created the universe in 7 days when this is not true they are wrong. I rephrased the question to avoid your apples and oranges evasive tactice. So go ahead and answer.

maliagar wrote:

Craven wrote:
So is the beginning of the Bible wrong? The 7 days and all? ...

Then you ask about the way I fit evolution in the Bible (which assumes that I care about having both things fit).

craven wrote:
So now, pray tell, how do you fit evolution into the Bible?

Then you ask if the Bible is being fallacious about the creation account (which assumes that the first 3 chapters of Genesis CAN BE fallacious).

craven wrote:
Is the Bible fallacious when it says that God created the world in 7 days or not?

Then you ask four times about my own beliefs, as if you had posed this question before:

craven wrote:
Again, the Bible says that God created the world in 7 days. Do you believe that?

You do need to do your homework (not only on what the Bible is, but on how to ask a question).

All you have illustrated is that someone can ask you something mnay times and you have no shame in evasive tactics when you are afraid to answer.

Again, the Bible says that God created the world in 7 days. Do you believe that?

maliagar wrote:

Craven de Kere wrote:
Shakespeare wrote fiction. Are you claiming the Bible is fiction?

Bingo! Finally! At last! (it took a while, though... not a good sign for someone who claims to have done his homework...)

You're getting just a tiny bit closer, Craven. (it is always good to hang out with me... you'll learn something).

I don't see why learning what you think about the Bible should be considered so valuable. Most people here think the Bible is fiction.

For most people it's just a simple answer to a question but you try to portray them as pearls. It's too obvious a ploy to really make anyone else but the employer loook like swine.

maliagar wrote:

I claim (well... the true specialists on these issues - the ones you've obviously not read) that foundational poetic myths and other forms of human expression of basic realities (literature, art) can have multiple layers of meaning. And multiple layers of meaning cannot be simply reduced to "right" or "wrong" statements (as the univocal natural sciences try to do). That's why we have whole fields devoted to interpretation (exegesis, hermeneutics).

[BTW, your questions are soooooo rooted in your metaphysical and epistemological religious beliefs...]

:wink:

Still can't answer?

Again, the Bible says that God created the world in 7 days. Do you believe that?

This can be acheived through a simple, YES or NO. It is not brain surgery Maliagar and the evasiveness is awkward to watch.

0 Replies

maliager has claimed that the catholic church is the only 'true' church chosen by god. Since the church is based on christian theology, we continue to wonder where maliagar gets his beliefs, because they are not consistent with church dogma. He still hasn't answered Frank nor Craven's simple and direct questions. maliagar is a enigma of the catholic church; he interprets things in ways that confounds most people including christians, egnostics, and atheists. As a representative of the catholic church, he has declared nothing.

0 Replies

When has religion irked you personally and why?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know