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They don't hate us, they love their God

 
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2007 12:09 pm
Setanta wrote:
But you're not paying attention. I specifically chose the examples i listed because they are instances of people going to war for a religious motive. You think it might have been worse?

Yes, it could have been worse and, some ways, it is worse today. Science has brought us nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons whose potential to destroy humanity would make the armies of the middle ages jealous. Furthermore, there we've seen mass slaughter for political or idealogical motives (not religious), such as Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc., which exceeds anything the religious zealots of middle ages attempted. With our modern scientific knowledge and the discrediting of religion, are we any more enlightened today?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2007 06:40 pm
Quote:
With our modern scientific knowledge and the discrediting of religion, are we any more enlightened today?


Yes. Disease and famine are not accepted as the will of God, but seen for what they are: preventable and avoidable circumstances of Nature. If people shrug off such disasters, they can no longer use the easy answer that such occurences are part of the mysterious ways of the godhead.

Joe(One cannot turn away and remain human)Nation
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2007 07:19 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
With our modern scientific knowledge and the discrediting of religion, are we any more enlightened today?


Yes. Disease and famine are not accepted as the will of God, but seen for what they are: preventable and avoidable circumstances of Nature. If people shrug off such disasters, they can no longer use the easy answer that such occurences are part of the mysterious ways of the godhead.

We are certainly more enlightened when it comes to knowing about nature. However, we don't use that knowledge solely for benefiting humanity. We also use it to create ever more destructive weapons, so that modern man actually has the capability to destroy the majority of life on this planet. The only thing that prevents it is the good sense of the people in power. I read a while back that during the 1980s, before the Soviet Union collapsed, there was a failure in the Soviet satellite system that indicated they were under attack by the U.S. from multiple nuclear missiles. If Soviet lt. Col. Petrov had followed protocol, he would have reported it to his superiors and a major exchange of nuclear missiles between the U.S. and the Soviet Union would have taken place, and millions would have died. Petrov trusted his intuition that the computers were wrong and a holocaust was avoided. (See, Stanislove Petrov.) In my opinion, humanity has not evolved all that far morally or spiritually.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 02:52 am
IfeelFree wrote"
Quote:
In my opinion, humanity has not evolved all that far morally or spiritually.

Hmmm. Despite all the assistances of the deepest spiritual minds, we have not evolved all that far morally, have we? You know, the Pope announced the other day that the Catholic Church really is the One True Church and that all the others aren't. That will help sooth a lot of minds, don't you think?
sigh

As for technology being used solely for the benefit of humankind, well, that has never been much the case, but if we are going to use technology to gain power and control - which is what I guess you are hinting at - shouldn't we admit that up front and honestly instead of shielding our greed behind a smokescreen of "doing the (Lord's) (Allah's)(Vishnu's) work? Wouldn't that be a step forward for bald truth?

Joe(Look, ma, no hand of god)Nation
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 03:15 am
IFeelFree wrote:
Science has brought us nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons whose potential to destroy humanity would make the armies of the middle ages jealous. Furthermore, there we've seen mass slaughter for political or idealogical motives (not religious), such as Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc., which exceeds anything the religious zealots of middle ages attempted. With our modern scientific knowledge and the discrediting of religion, are we any more enlightened today?


Science has brought us knowledge. Its man's harnessing and application of knowledge in the form of technology that has brought us both fantastic benefits and fearsome weapons. Science itself is neutral.

Then you come out with the old chestnut that the excesses in Stanlist Russia etc were worse than religious persecution and seem to imply from that religion is not such a bad thing. I would say both religious persecution and the excesses you mention have a common root stemming from the perverted submission of the self in furtherance of some perfected ideal. Religious fervour is just an example of that, as are the horrors of Pol Pots Cambodia.

The last part of your post seems to imply that its only religion that gives us our moral compass. This is not true. Is it only fear of god's wrath that keeps believers from committing all sorts of heinous crime? Are you the sort of person who would naturally go around raping and pillaging if it were not for the fact you believe God is watching? And what happens when a religious leader says its Gods will to do a bit of looting and raping of the unbelievers? Are you the sort of person who would naturally feel revulsion at that, and in which case what is the source of that revulsion? Morality stems from altruism and altruism is a recognised survival strategy exhibited among many animals including human beings which in turn is a product of evolution.

Man's capacity for self harm has never been greater, I agree. To keep us from harm we need more understanding not religion. I can think of nothing more frightening than religious fanatics getting their hands on nuclear weapons...which if we are not careful will happen if not in Iran then in Pakistan.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 04:49 am
Steve:

You've got it.

Joe(handshake)Nation
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 05:10 am
Thanks joe

reciprocated

off now on bike
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 08:25 am
IFeelFree wrote:
With our modern scientific knowledge and the discrediting of religion, are we any more enlightened today?


That would depend upon what one meant by enlightened. As recently as one hundred years ago, one could expect that at least half of one's children would die (as a statistical average) before the end of childhood, and most likely in infancy. Tuberculosis was rampant and claimed the high and the low. There is a very simple reason for this--horseshit (something with which you should be very familiar, given the amount you spread around with your "higher consciousness" conceit and your "enlightenment" song and dance).

The single factor which changed all of this, and changed it radically in a generation was the automobile. Horse manure in the streets of every town and city bred flies in numbers you are likely incapable of conceiving (even if you have visited Asia, as i have, you still would have no conception of the number of flies, since they use automobiles in Asia, too). Those flies were the vectors of the diseases which ravaged the children of the world in a way that modern famines have never done. In 1880, the population of the United States was about 60,000,000. This meant that from 3- to 5,000,000 children died each year, including the children of newly arrived immigrant families--Rwanda, with 800,000 killed in two months time just manages to match this death rate. Rwanda was the most horrific slaughter of modern times, since the Nazi holocaust, and yet it only manages to match the casual death rate of children in the United States a century earlier, and can't even approach the casual death rate of children world wide in the 1880s.

Additionally, towns and cities were all the homes of livery stables and urban private stables and paddocks. The horse was ubiquitous, and the horse is, in addition to producer of manure, a vector for tuberculosis. The poet John Keats, who, along with his sister, died of tuberculosis, grew up in relatively luxurious quarters--above an urban livery stable which his father managed. His father died when he was nine, and his mother died six years later--of tuberculosis. What changed all of that, removed the manure of literally tens of millions of horses from the streets of the cities of the "industrialized world" and the urban stables was the automobile. For all that one may allege against automobiles, the positive effect of the proliferation of automobiles on public health is more dramatic than any single other event in history.

I thought about telling the story of Dr. John Snow, but suffice it to say that an understanding of the basic principles of epidemiology, and the application of the then new discipline of demographic statistics allowed Dr. Snow and the "city fathers" of southern London to identify contaminated water as the vector of cholera (and as was soon learned, a host of other septic diseases) without reference to a germ-theory of epidemiology. I could also rehearse for you the advances in modern agriculture, and even how industrial poisons as powerful as DDT can benefit mankind, if properly used--in the case of the latter, to attack the vector of malaria.

While you sit at home contemplating your navel, you do so with access to high quality fresh food, high quality medical care, high quality personal or public transportation--all of which was made possible by the advancements derived from scientific research. You can bleat to your heart's content about spiritual enlightenment and the "benefits" of religion, the likely truth is that you'd have been lucky to have survived your childhood had you been born two hundred years earlier. For this inestimable benefit to us all (yes, that was sarcasm), there is no good reason to thank the priest or the guru. In case you missed the point, even if you had been born only a hundred years earlier, the odds are good that you wouldn't have been any more enlightened--the odds were that you'd have been dead long before you could have attained your "enlightenment."
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 09:48 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Science has brought us knowledge. Its man's harnessing and application of knowledge in the form of technology that has brought us both fantastic benefits and fearsome weapons. Science itself is neutral.

I agree completely.
Quote:
Then you come out with the old chestnut that the excesses in Stanlist Russia etc were worse than religious persecution and seem to imply from that religion is not such a bad thing.

I think they were worse (millions died), and to the extent that religion has advocated love, compassion, forgiveness, etc., it has had a positive influence during history. Unfortunately, the spiritual teachings that were the foundation of all great religions were corrupted over time so that religions such as Christianity are today only a shell of spirituality.
Quote:
I would say both religious persecution and the excesses you mention have a common root stemming from the perverted submission of the self in furtherance of some perfected ideal. Religious fervour is just an example of that, as are the horrors of Pol Pots Cambodia.

It is wrong to say that all of these excesses are the result of religious fanaticism. As far as I know, all of the examples I mentioned (Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur) had nothing to do with religion. They were about power, greed, racism, etc. The invasions and violent campaigns in history that are related to religious differences are really about gaining power and wealth, and any connection with religion is a perversion of religious teaching. (For example, Christ did not teach that we should kill non-believers.)
Quote:
The last part of your post seems to imply that its only religion that gives us our moral compass. This is not true.

That is not what I was implying. I was saying that science, for all that it has given us, has not made us more moral, and has increased our ability to destroy ourselves.
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Is it only fear of god's wrath that keeps believers from committing all sorts of heinous crime?

That is complete nonsense. I have never said anything like that.
Quote:
Are you the sort of person who would naturally go around raping and pillaging if it were not for the fact you believe God is watching? And what happens when a religious leader says its Gods will to do a bit of looting and raping of the unbelievers?

Those statements are the projection of your own discomfort with religion. No mature person would think that way. I am an outspoken critic of religion. It served a purpose in history, but that purpose has mostly come to an end. The dominance of science may be eroding as well.
Quote:
Are you the sort of person who would naturally feel revulsion at that, and in which case what is the source of that revulsion? Morality stems from altruism and altruism is a recognised survival strategy exhibited among many animals including human beings which in turn is a product of evolution.

I agree. Morality and spirituality are innate evolutionary capabilities in humans. They are also survival strategies. Without love, compassion, forgiveness, we'd have killed each other off a long time ago.
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Man's capacity for self harm has never been greater, I agree. To keep us from harm we need more understanding not religion.

What kind of understanding? More science? Not likely. We need a moral and spiritual transformation.
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I can think of nothing more frightening than religious fanatics getting their hands on nuclear weapons...which if we are not careful will happen if not in Iran then in Pakistan.

I agree. It is not only possible, but likely. I worry about it a lot.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 09:56 am
Setanta wrote:
...While you sit at home contemplating your navel, you do so with access to high quality fresh food, high quality medical care, high quality personal or public transportation--all of which was made possible by the advancements derived from scientific research.

I am very grateful for the benefits of science. It has been a tremendous boon to humanity in many ways. (I am a scientist, remember!) That does not mean that science and society are all that we need to be happy and healthy. We have more than just our physical and emotional needs. As a person matures they desire self-knowledge, and to know our purpose. This leads to spiritual inquiry. Spirituality is as innate to humans as the capacity for reason and social interaction. It is one aspect of our being.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 10:09 am
IFeelFree wrote:
That does not mean that science and society are all that we need to be happy and healthy.


Why? This is merely a statement from authority, for which you do not even adduce a plausible logical basis. Were i to stipulate, simply for the sake of the discussion, that "we" need something else to be "happy," why would one automatically assume that what is needed is organized religion?

Quote:
We have more than just our physical and emotional needs.


Do we ! ? ! ? !

Other than admitting that you have just thrown out another unsupported statement from authority, what possible evidence can you allege to support this contention.

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As a person matures they desire self-knowledge, and to know our purpose.


More ex cathedra bullshit. To suggest that we have a "purpose" begs all sorts of spiritual questions, not the least of which is whether or not there were a deity who proposes a purpose for us.

Quote:
This leads to spiritual inquiry.


Yet another unsupported statement from authority. To which i should add, because i have not done so yet in this thread, an authority which no one here has any reason to assume you are entitled to allege. If you cannot demonstrate that any such thing as a "spirit" exists, you are simply stating that self-delusion is inevitable.

Quote:
Spirituality is as innate to humans as the capacity for reason and social interaction. It is one aspect of our being.


Here we go again. What is your basis for such a statement? Upon what allegedly logical basis to you think you can demonstrate that this is the case? If "spirituality" were innate, why does one need to fill the heads of small children with all the god bullshit? If "spirituality" were innate, why is it necessary to dispatch missionaries to enlighten the "benighted" savages of the world. If "spirituality" were innate, why have not people long ago agreed upon what the constituent details of the ineffable spirit are?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 10:10 am
By the way, i found it particularly hilarious that you allege that "reason" is innate. If that were so, why are we surrounded with a plethora of the most outrageously irrational religious scriptural traditions?
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 01:27 pm
Setanta wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
That does not mean that science and society are all that we need to be happy and healthy.


Why? This is merely a statement from authority, for which you do not even adduce a plausible logical basis. Were i to stipulate, simply for the sake of the discussion, that "we" need something else to be "happy," why would one automatically assume that what is needed is organized religion?

It is my observation that many people feel the need for a purpose to their lives and to gain a better understanding of why the are the way they are, and if real change is possible. Others are free to disagree. However, I am not advocating organized religion.
Quote:
Quote:
We have more than just our physical and emotional needs.


Do we ! ? ! ? !

Other than admitting that you have just thrown out another unsupported statement from authority, what possible evidence can you allege to support this contention.

I also don't have evidence that humans need intellectual stimulation, relationships with others, a sense of self-worth, love, music, and freedom, but I believe it nevertheless. As a practical benefit of spirituality I would point to the many people who have benefited from 12-step programs. (They acknowledge a "higher power" and try to effect a "spiritual" change as I understand the word.)
Quote:
Quote:
As a person matures they desire self-knowledge, and to know our purpose.


More ex cathedra bullshit. To suggest that we have a "purpose" begs all sorts of spiritual questions, not the least of which is whether or not there were a deity who proposes a purpose for us.

Yes is does beg spiritual questions, including the existence of God.
Quote:
Quote:
This leads to spiritual inquiry.


Yet another unsupported statement from authority. To which i should add, because i have not done so yet in this thread, an authority which no one here has any reason to assume you are entitled to allege. If you cannot demonstrate that any such thing as a "spirit" exists, you are simply stating that self-delusion is inevitable.

Spirit is within. It is available to anyone who desires to experience it. I also can't readily demonstrate the existence of love to someone who doesn't believe in it. However, I know it exists.
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Spirituality is as innate to humans as the capacity for reason and social interaction. It is one aspect of our being.


Here we go again. What is your basis for such a statement?

My own experience.
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Upon what allegedly logical basis to you think you can demonstrate that this is the case?

I cannot demonstrate it objectively anymore than I can demonstrate love objectively. Both have to be experienced.
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If "spirituality" were innate, why does one need to fill the heads of small children with all the god bullshit?

One doesn't need to, and shouldn't.
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If "spirituality" were innate, why is it necessary to dispatch missionaries to enlighten the "benighted" savages of the world.

It isn't necessary, and I don't support that.
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If "spirituality" were innate, why have not people long ago agreed upon what the constituent details of the ineffable spirit are?

People approach spirit with different cultural backgrounds, different levels of understanding, and different levels of spiritual awakening. However, it is possible to form a general understanding of spirituality that encompasses all spiritual traditions. Unfortunately, many people are locked into their own narrow religious tradition.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 02:34 pm
You convince of nothing other than your own "spiritual" conceits. You certainly don't offer anything which addresses Joe's topic--no surprises there.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 03:47 pm
Set, if we forget "reason" as logic and the scientific attitude, I would suggest that humans from the very beginning have had to have some degree of ability to make sense (accurately or not) of the world and to be able to "rationally" (minimally) think in terms of means-ends strategies for coping with conditions. I don't think we would be here if that were not the case. And if that were not so, what a waste to have, and have had, such large brains and the capacity for communication (not arguing, of course, that communication followed intelligence or that intelligence followed from the practice of communication: the arrows of causation probably flew both ways--mutual causation, I guess).
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 03:56 pm
The comment about "reason" and whether it were innate, JL, was simply wry sarcasm. This member has asserted that a great many things are innate, but never offers any better evidence than that it is what he believes. That's fine for as far as it goes--it doesn't, however, go very far in establishing that things such as "morality" or "spirituality" are innate.
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eltejano
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 03:12 am
I have read this thread with interest. These folks are obviously way above my educational level, and I probably shouldn't intrude, but I would like to pose one question - something that I truly don't understand. I'm not being sarcastic - I honestly don't "get it."

I do understand agnosticism. It is understandable that a trained, scientific mind would not accept anything as fact without empirical evidence. But I remain at a loss to grasp the intellectual rationale of those who flatly deny even the possibility of a Creator - or, at least, some kind of guiding intelligence behind the physical world as we observe it.

Perhaps everything we see, from a bacteria to the farthest depths of the known universe, is nothing more than a small mold on a bowl of fruit on some giant's table - or a pet project in the lab of some extraterrestrial scientist. Even those are comparatively plausible hypotheses - but it seems to me that the odds against everything we perceive - in all it's incredible complexity, perfect order, and regulated adherence to physical laws - accidentally "happening" by pure chance have to be incalculably (if there is such a word) astronomical - maybe umpteen gadzillion to one! Smile

When highly educated, intelligent people accept such an unlikely scenario, and even present it as confirmed fact, I can only conclude that they are motivated, not by a quest for knowledge or truth, but rather by ideologically based hostility to organized religion and the myriad evils we all agree it has caused through the centuries - islamic terrorism being just the most recent. To deny the possibility, perhaps even the probability, of a universal, guiding intelligence, is something akin to believing that a tornado could tear through a junkyard and completely assemble a Boeing 747 ready to fly!

I would suggest that these folks should re-evaluate their position on this, separating ideology from science, and consider a more tenable agnostic philosophy instead of uncompromising atheism - which, frankly, places them in the same camp with religious fanatics who make similar flat statements based on their faith alone.

I just joined the forum. I hope am not intruding on a private party.

Jack
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 03:47 am
Quote:
To deny the possibility, perhaps even the probability, of a universal, guiding intelligence, is something akin to believing that a tornado could tear through a junkyard and completely assemble a Boeing 747 ready to fly!


Not if the tornado lasted 13.7 billion years.


Joe(there are no private parties here)Nation
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eltejano
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 04:08 am
Good point, Joe! That reduces to odds to only one in seven jillion. Want me to do the math? Smile

Jack
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 04:31 am
Yes. Do that math. What is the probability that there is, in fact, a god?
(The same one that they love so much they will kill you for.)

And what is the possibility that any insurance company would provide any sort of damage coverage based on that probability? In other words, in order to collect, you would have to prove that any damage was due, not to nature, but to the actions or inactions of god.

Joe(then tell us how to sue for the loss)Nation
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