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The whales

 
 
littlek
 
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 06:56 pm
No Save the whales threads going already? How strange.

I just came across an article from Reuters about baleen whales (humpback, minke, and fin). Scientists have been doing DNA (mitochondrial) sampling of existing baleen whales in the wild. Humpback whales could have numbered around 1.5 million once upon a time, not the previously targeted 100,000.

Whale populations have been growing under the laws restricting or prohibiting hunting. Whalers (Norway, Japan, et al) are saying that whale populations have rebounded enough that they can resume hunting. But, the science behind this article says that hunting shouldn't resume for some time yet. The International Whaling Commission will allow countries to hunt the whales again when their numbers excede half of their estimated pre-whaling populations.

Humpback whales link
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 07:09 pm
I guess I haveta ask. Why is the original population size the target? Humptybacks dine on krill, the volume and production of which is sensitive to seasonal and water quality pressures.
In ecology, I believe the goal is becoming more focused on sustainability and carrying capacity of the environment, not some arbitrary Pleistocene population . We will never ever see the numbers of bison that once roamed the plains , or wolves, or grizzlies , or even kestrels. As such, We must recognize that we (as a species) have the dominant dibs on the environment for our own sustainability. WHile I support species maintenance and "back from the brink" heroic means to restore dwindling populations, I believe we have to admit that our planet will have to sustain some population of all baleen whales, maybe much less than its prehistoric level.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 07:42 pm
Here in the bay of Fundy we see a periodic peaking of various species, and they all are cyclic, but all of the populations respond, in some fashion to the works of humans . For example, sea grasses sustain urchins who dine on algaes . Starfish eat urchins and the populations of all three are maintained in a delicate balance. Along comes man who harvests the rockweed and other algaes . This makes the urchins and then the starfish crash. Then a number of other species interlocked in the seaweed/urchin/starfish web begin to be affected. Either we stop harvesting rockweed or let the urchin numbers be unsustainable.Here the answer is easy, the rockweed is harvested for fertilizer , so this is a "no-brainer" except for the organic fertilizer industry which depends on sales to commited organic gardening devotees.

There is a huge farmed salmon industry with miles of pens holding smolts and grown salmon.This extends from inside the Bay of Fundy down along the coast of the Gulf of Maine to around Jonesport The feeding of salmon with KRILL_MEAL has attracted halibut and other flatfish to the area and their populations are now growing. At the same time, the relatively new salmon presence has attracted big numbers of seals. These are little harbor seals whos population has exploded. The Canadians shoot the seals, the US side doesnt, so the population keeps growing along with a bunch of seal corpses. In the last 5 or so years a pod of Killer whales has appeared and is now about 20 individuals and , fecund they are. Last few years weve been seeing 5 or more pups each summer. Weve now got a started resident population of killer whales that will begin to have an effect on the seal [population. Yet the whole scenario is dependent upon humans futzing with the ecosystem. Weve taken the krill, made fishmeal out of it, fed it to penned salmon, attracted entirely new species that are considered exotic to this area. Yet everyone will want the killer whales to be kept here at all costs, even if the salmon farms are deliterious to the overall health of the ecosystem.

I find all these webs fascinating but , at the same time, I try to look beneath the population dynamics as they now exist and see what the untouched "natural" population and its carrying capacity was at one time. I dont think that salmon farming will go away since its a native fish and the farming is more dependent on technology than manpower.
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bobsmyth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 07:44 pm
I actually wrote an article on whaling in Madeira while living there. Talking to someone who had actually hunted the old way with harpoon in an open book and described going for a "sleigh ride" was really interesting. The film "Moby Dick" starring Gregory Peck was filmed in Madeira and many of the whalers on the island were used as extras. But I digress. Here are some links for those who want to know more.

http://www.cetacea.org/whales.htm

http://dkd.net/whales/

http://www.whales-online.org/
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 07:52 pm
farmerman - 1/2 the old population. I think there will be estimated a highest possible number of whales (the article seemed to say 1.5 million). There will also be a likely full population number that will be much more conservative (the article says 800,000 or 900,000). And then the work still to be done will be finding out which number to halve.

It seems silly almost to keep any species alive if you're not going to let it have the benefits of a healthy population.

Bobsmyth - thanks for the links. You get around to dealing with some of the coolest species!
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bobsmyth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 01:07 am
Record of whale catches since 1910:

http://luna.pos.to/whale/sta.html
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 02:08 am
Hooray, a whales thread.

Write to HofT, she's an enthusiast and knowledgeable activist I seem to remember.

Off now, back later.

McT
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 02:50 am
Id like to see someone write a " Reintroduction of Killer Whales to the BAy of Fundy" article. Its a very recent occurence of these guys. Ten years ago any killer whale sighting was big news for days from Eastport all the way to St John. Now, its a regular occurence and the waters around Grand Manan seem to be killer whale central. Were going out this AM to do the 30 mile jaunt over the head of the BAy and then well do a round about Grand Manan to see them. Of course theres a big pod of finbacks and these are less visible than killers since they slide in the water so low and they have only a small fleshy fin . These guys are about 70 to 90 ft long but they slip in the water so quietly that they can hide easily.
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bobsmyth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 05:54 am
The Bay of Fundy Whales




http://new-brunswick.net/new-brunswick/whales/
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 07:18 am
I didn't realize we even had orcas this side of the country.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 07:58 am
The Scientific American version of the research:

SciAm version

Quote:
high historic whale population could have an impact on how scientists presently view the status of whales as an endangered species. The current humpback whale population of around 10,000 is roughly 50 percent of the pre-industrial whaling numbers determined from logbook records. Using the genetic analysis, however, the current population is only 4 percent of what it once was. Palumbi says that with the revised historical estimates, it could be "on the order of 50 to 100 years" before whales can again be hunted.


Quote:
The new analysis only gives a long-term population; essentially, it shows that at some point there must have been enough whales to account for the genetic diversity seen today. "One of the limitations is that we can't say that in 1600 there were 240,000 whales," Roman points out, and adds, "We don't see evidence that they went through a population bottleneck any time recently."
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 04:59 pm
Interesting!
Thanks k for setting this one up and for everyone coming in with insight and information as well!

I have to agree with some of the points farmerman brings up regarding how we tend to offset the balance while trying to regain and that we really ought to put more time and effort into the whole picture with as many people in the pot at the same time...this happens to be one of the only items I think that more cooks in the soup is a good thing.
So far, I have only seen this type of thing with Lake Powell/Colorado River stuff happening. Not only the human side, but what the human effect has been so far, will changing it once again be beneficial or detrimental and to what aspects including humans, as well as all aspects of the impact to present and future ecosystems. And this is PRIOR to enforcement of the proposed projects. All hands in the soup make sure all are aware of all impacts...I think its a good thing.

Regarding the Orca population, I was wondering if that would be the case with the seals....very interesting.
k...Ive seen seals as far south as Salem, with our cold temp waters and an increase in the population it would be logical that other predator population would migrate/increase etc. so, its interesting to see all this chat about it. I want to know more. Smile
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 07:19 pm
Well, we went over to Grand Manan and left about 4 Am so we could beat any Black Harbour ship traffic. We had to use radar and it was a bit spooky with the water lapping at the sidestrake and, with the engine off, listening for whales. We could hear the sound of them breaching and blowing but couldnt see any. Finally when the sun arose and the fog was burning off we saw a number of finbacks and Minkes, but no killers. The seals were everywhere and particularly near salmon pens closer to land.
The water is very deep so close to land here inthe area between St St Andrews and Grand Manan (its about 400 to 500 feet deep in a fjord channel only a few miles wide) so the whales and all sorts of deepwater creatures are quite common. Also, its sort of unusual but The basking and whale sharks are getting rather common.
Well, that be the tales of the whale searchers from up here in Eastport, Arrrrr.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 07:38 pm
But but but! I thought Orcas lived in the Pacific. There have always been seals (harbor seals) on cape cod. Are Orcas from the Pacific? And if the answer to that is yes, how did they get here? Around south america, through the panama canal (I doubt it), or under the arctic ice cap?
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 07:40 pm
I do whole-heartedly believe that the ecosystem (micro or macro) needs to be treated as a whole.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:17 pm
Sounds terrific -- how big was your boat?
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:18 pm
interesting tidbits regarding killer whales from:

http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/KillerWhale/habdiskw.html

Quote:

A. Distribution/Habitat.
1. Next to humans, killer whales are the most widely distributed mammal. Killer whales inhabit all oceans of the world but are most numerous in the Arctic, the Antarctic, and areas of cold water upwelling. They can be sporadically sighted along the shores of Washington, Oregon, California, and Baja California and along the eastern coast of the United States.

2. In addition to cold water areas, killer whales also have been seen in warm water areas such as Hawaii, Australia, the Galapagos Islands, the Bahamas, and the Gulf of Mexico. Such sightings are infrequent, but they do demonstrate the killer whales' ability to venture into tropical waters. Even more surprising, killer whales have been seen in fresh water rivers around the world such as the Rhine, the Thames, and the Elbe. One even traveled some 177 km (110 mi.) up the Columbia River to eat fish.

3. Although killer whales can be found in both the open ocean and coastal waters, they primarily inhabit the continental shelf in waters less than 200 m (656 ft.) deep. In cold water areas, their distribution is limited by seasonal pack ice.

B. Migration.
In some areas, the seasonal movements of killer whales are influenced by the migration of fish and other prey. In eastern Canada, killer whale movements are often a response to seal and rorqual whale migrations, while northeastern Atlantic killer whales seem to follow herring. In the Bering, Chukchi, and Beaufort seas, killer whales make considerable seasonal movements in response to the advance and retreat of the pack ice.

C. Population.
1. Because of their wide distribution, the worldwide population of killer whales is unknown. Few regional groups of killer whales have been studied thoroughly, making worldwide population estimates difficult. Some specific killer whale populations have been examined, however:

a. The southeastern Alaska population is estimated at 250.

b. The populations around Prince William Sound, western Alaska/Bering Sea, and British Columbia/Puget Sound by Vancouver Island are believed to be around 300 for each area.

c. Population estimates in the Antarctic range from 70,000 to 180,000.

2. Killer whales are not regarded as an endangered species.


Seals on the Cape? Interesting....any area more than another?
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:43 pm
Q - re seals: I know the mid-cape. There are 2 kinds of seals in the welfleet harbor - a sand spit out (can't remember the name of the island/land bridge). At least one type bears and raises pups on the national seashore - I've photo'd a lil pup in Eastham. I believe they get around P-town too. We have harbor seals in the Boston harbor as well. Right up agaist the city walls. I didn't know about any of the seal populations in MA until a couple years ago.

Now about the orcas - I had NO idea. They're like the raccoons of the oceans.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:52 pm
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwAMAyAW5TJqhcL!PfpBFC*xpVx8t!ifw1iXrBGPTdp41ao3B9YLeCAPyBT60DX6pwgRGS7AnubxM323kS2i*6EceGwA6wMQb0OE5l8Wk*g/sealpupface.jpg?dc=4675431830573395907

aaaawwwwww
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:54 pm
I thought the seals might get out to the Cape and had heard of some sightings around Boston...but, if what you say is true...I could actually have some seals close by....but have yet to see any.
There were always a great deal up on the North Shore, I guess I just miss them. Pups? awww.

Yes, very interseting about the killer whales inhabiting so many of the areas-particularly the tropics, I find that fascinating.
yep..raccoons...I was thinking what that reminded me of!! thanks!
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