1
   

Is homosexuality an evolutionary mistake?

 
 
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 09:30 am
As a gay person who actually understands evolution, I do have to wonder... isn't homosexuality the ultimate slap in the face? I am an evolutionary dead-end unless I donate sperm. Do not get me wrong. I'm an ego-congruent homosexual. I have no problem with how I was built. But I'm willing to accept the fact that my sexual orientation was an error of biology. I find the concept fascinating.

Thoughts?
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 6,604 • Replies: 66
No top replies

 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 09:46 am
I don't think evolution makes mistakes, or has successes....it just produces organisms that are better or worse able to live in an environment.

Let's say female humans evolved with the capcity to give birth to 5 or 6 humans, every other year. At one point that would have been fine if most of them died before reaching an age where they could breed.

Today? We'd be incredibly overpopulated, and would have long ago exhausted our resources.

In a case like that, being a homosexual would be advantageous.

If every hetersexual disappeared tomorrow, humans wouldn't cease to exist, even in the absence of technology, like in vitro fertilization.

Because we also evolved with large brains, the lesbians and gays would realize and accept they would just have to, on occassion, take one for the gipper and have sex with each other. In fact, children might then be far healthier since the sexual couple, without having an emotional attachment would choose each other based on health and intelligence preferences.
0 Replies
 
Quincy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 10:10 am
I would like to say that I will crib liberally from "The Moral Animal: Why We Are The Way We Are." by Robert Wright, which I strongly recommend.

In decades gone by, biologists would have said homosexuality is a bit like the sterile ant: rather than directly passing on there genes there was a sort of indirect benefit by helping a close relative maximise their reproductive fitness.
But this doesnt seem quite correct- homosexuals do not devote their lives to close relatives, they are independant human beings, and sterile ants don't falll in love with other sterile ants as human homosexuals would (with other homosexuals that is, not with sterile ants....).
It seems it must start from the sort of bi-sexual gratification that bonobos have, where they engage in genital rubbing as a sign of friendliness. Some sort of vestige such as this may have become homosexuality in the correct social environment. Just think of heterosexual men in jail.
There most probably isn't a gay gene, but rather a gene that is more likely to make the bearer gay under the right condition, just as there is no such thing as a 'football' gene but maybe, say, a gene for strength.
The gene(s) which influences homosexuality probably served some other purpose in the human past, but in todays environment manifests itself as homosexuality in the correct environment
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 11:36 am
Quincy wrote:
Quote:
But this doesnt seem quite correct- homosexuals do not devote their lives to close relatives, they are independant human beings, and sterile ants don't falll in love with other sterile ants as human homosexuals would (with other homosexuals that is, not with sterile ants....).[/[/i]


This made me laugh so hard- just the mental picture it paints is priceless- and I thought- how would the person know that ant was sterile? And was sterility what drew them to the ant.... Laughing

Quote:
Just think of heterosexual men in jail.

A heterosexual man in jail who has sex with another male is still heterosexual- he's just lonely and sexually frustrated. Someone who is homosexual would still choose to have sex with someone of the same sex even when there are people of the opposite gender available.

I guess in order to prove it's some sort of mutation, you'd have to have measureable evidence that the incidence with which it occurs in the population has risen over generations. Do you have any info as to whether that's true or not? It seems that everything I've heard seems to suggest the occurrence has been pretty steady at around 10% of the population. But I don't know how long they've been collecting accurate data- or whether if in the past, particularly in places where it's majorly taboo- getting accurate data was even within the realm of possibility
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 11:54 am
Re: Is homosexuality an evolutionary mistake?
stlstrike3 wrote:
As a gay person who actually understands evolution, I do have to wonder... isn't homosexuality the ultimate slap in the face? I am an evolutionary dead-end unless I donate sperm. Do not get me wrong. I'm an ego-congruent homosexual. I have no problem with how I was built. But I'm willing to accept the fact that my sexual orientation was an error of biology. I find the concept fascinating.

Thoughts?

You assume that we live in a perfect world. We don't. Far from it. Who's to say, then, that evolution is perfect? Who's also to say that by changing our environment, either through natural or manmade means, that how we evolve can also change profoundly?

A single meteor can change the course of evolution in the blink of an eye. Homosexuality/bisexuality exists in practically every species on the planet. So who's to say, then, that homosexuality is abnormal?

Only those who thump the bible and scream hypocrisy when they get caught with their own pants down.

And as we are continuing to overpopulate this planet, I'd say that evolution has nothing to fear from homosexuality. If anything, entire species may vanish NOT from homosexuality, but from the effects the human race has had on this planet over thousands upon thousands of years.

How we evolve will be a by-product more from our environment around us rather than our sexual practices.
0 Replies
 
jaimela
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 12:27 pm
I don't think it's a mistake. It's been around forever. Chernobyl--that was a mistake.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 12:27 pm
Evolution doesn't make mistakes, because it's not not a being that is trying to accomplish anything. It is simply a random process. So your genes won't be passed on...so what? Evolution couldn't care less if all life on planet Earth stopped tomorrow.

You're wrong about it being a "slap in face" or counteractive to the evolutionary process. Evolution is entirely based on making random changes to the genome, some of which pan out and some of which don't. It is expected that they do not all pass their genes on...or else it wouldn't work at all.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 12:36 pm
Your genes would care, though, insofar as genes care. Genes want to continue. Genes do their best to continue. Their attempts at continuing is what constitues evolution, pretty much.

I read some recent research about how the amount of older brothers has a positive corellation to homosexuality. (More brothers, more likely to be homosexual.) I think that could turn out to have something to do with it, from an evolutionary perspective. There are plenty of boys to spread the mother's genes around, so after a while it's in the best interest of the genes -- the boys' own kids, or the mother's grandchildren -- if there is less competition (more kids) and more support (getting food, protecting the community, etc.)

Maybe homosexuality is "better" than infertility because if all is well there will be no need for more kids to be produced, but if all is not well, the gay guy still has viable sperm. (Maybe in certain circumstances that signal a need for seed [heh] women become more attractive to an otherwise gay guy... who knows.)

Also -- and this is interesting and changes some of my previous thinking on homosexuality -- it seems like the mechanisms involved in male and female homosexuality may be different. No, I don't mean tab A and slot B type mechanisms -- I mean that there are fundamental differences in how people wind up gay or lesbian. It seems like it might be (note qualifiers, this stuff is still new and indefinite) that men are either/or -- men are born gay or not, and stick with that orientation throughout -- while women are pretty much all biologically bisexual, more like the bonobos as mentioned earlier. And that different things "make" a woman lesbian.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 12:53 pm
sozobe wrote:
Your genes would care, though, insofar as genes care. Genes want to continue. Genes do their best to continue. Their attempts at continuing is what constitues evolution, pretty much.


What are you talking about, soz?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 12:56 pm
Bonobos display a wide range of sexual behavior previously thought to only occur in human beings, including tongue kissing, anal licking, oral sex and both male and female homosexuality. The linked article was originally published in The Scientific American, and concerns itself with sex roles. However, the point could be made that if homosexuality is an evolutionary "mistake," it is one which has been made more than once.

Researchers who study bonobos believe that a good deal of the wide range of sexual behavior exhibited has a social purpose. To assume that the only evolutionary purposes served by behavior, including homosexuality, is directly reproductive seems to me to be rather dull-witted. It is entirely possible that homosexuality serves the genetic survival of the larger group, in which case not only would it not be an evolutionary mistake, it could be considered an elegant evolutionary refinement.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 12:58 pm
I don't think you're an evolutionary dead end unless you donate sperm, but you would be a reproductive dead end. Many folks remain childless, regardless of their sexual orientation, and yet the species will continue to evolve.

I also don't think evolution is the result of random genetic changes but a reaction to stimuli from the environment. The genetic changes resulting from an evolutionary process are quite specific.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 12:59 pm
Basically what you said in your second paragraph, which wasn't there when I started typing.
0 Replies
 
stlstrike3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 01:41 pm
stuh505 wrote:
Evolution doesn't make mistakes, because it's not not a being that is trying to accomplish anything. It is simply a random process. So your genes won't be passed on...so what? Evolution couldn't care less if all life on planet Earth stopped tomorrow.

You're wrong about it being a "slap in face" or counteractive to the evolutionary process. Evolution is entirely based on making random changes to the genome, some of which pan out and some of which don't. It is expected that they do not all pass their genes on...or else it wouldn't work at all.


OK. I suppose "mistake" was the wrong word. I suppose what I was round-about asking was:

Is the fact that we evolved to a degree of intelligence that we are now able to subvert natural selection allowing certain random traits that would otherwise be "selected out", like homosexuality, to persist?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 01:47 pm
Evolution is not about the survival and/or reproduction of an individual.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 01:57 pm
stlstrike3 wrote:
stuh505 wrote:
Evolution doesn't make mistakes, because it's not not a being that is trying to accomplish anything. It is simply a random process. So your genes won't be passed on...so what? Evolution couldn't care less if all life on planet Earth stopped tomorrow.

You're wrong about it being a "slap in face" or counteractive to the evolutionary process. Evolution is entirely based on making random changes to the genome, some of which pan out and some of which don't. It is expected that they do not all pass their genes on...or else it wouldn't work at all.


OK. I suppose "mistake" was the wrong word. I suppose what I was round-about asking was:

Is the fact that we evolved to a degree of intelligence that we are now able to subvert natural selection allowing certain random traits that would otherwise be "selected out", like homosexuality, to persist?



But homosexuality Wouldn't be "selected out"....Lesbians might be raped and get pregnant. They also marry men and raise children by a man. Gay men can and do have relations with females for various reasons and are a father to her children.

Your talking about a world where unwanted sex doesn't take place, and there is no pressure to conform to a norm.

Like I said before, if the world was populated entirely by homosexuals, people would still have sex with each other to produce children, because of our intelligence.

All those animals breeds with a low sex drive, like pandas? Maybe they're just gay.
0 Replies
 
bdouglass
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 02:08 pm
It would be a bit pessimistic to say that homosexuality is an evolutionary slap in the face. It just depends on your view point. First and foremost evolution is what has given you the intelligence and ability to pass on your genes despite the fact you are gay. Kind of like circumventing natural order. You can still artificially inseminate or take one for the team so to speak and knock some chick up. Therefore you're still in the evolutionary race.

And even if you dont procreate who cares? From a self absorbed standpoint, evolution created you and thats all you can really ask for anyway.
0 Replies
 
stlstrike3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 02:40 pm
Something just occurred to me.

If homosexuality has a genetic component (which I believe it almost certainly does) then perhaps the generations of religious bias against the lifestyle forced a lot of otherwise gay men to stomach luvins with women.... meaning the church inadvertently drove the number of homosexuals up by encouraging gay men to ignore their urges... and make more babies with gay genes? Smile
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 02:44 pm
First, you would need to establish as fact that there is a "gay gene." Secondly, your thesis is flawed because it relies upon an assertion that "religion" is naturally homophobic. You have taken, as you did in your thread about education and religion, the Judeo-Christian tradition as the only valid example of what constitutes "religion." In that thread, having begged the initial question of whether or not it were true that better-educated people are "less religious," you proceeded to ask questions which themselves begged questions. For example, you asked if that accounted for why "religion" attacks "science." But that is simply a phenomenon of fundamentalist religious belief, and in particular, the experience of the United States.

You consistently take a very narrow view. Not all religion is condemnatory of homosexuality. There is also no good reason to assume that the children of a homosexual man or woman will themselves be homosexual. You really need to broaden your understanding of the human condition.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 03:26 pm


But bonobo's aren't are closest evolutionary neighbor, they're chimpanzees and they're rather warlike. One could then extrapolate a warrior gene that prefers the company of men.

Don't get me wrong, as I feel that homosexuality is a genetic "tendency" and that evolution provides a reason for that "tendency", and that homosexuality can provide a genetic "altruism" linking nieces and nephews to the gene line (although a quarter of the strength of progeny), but in a promiscuous society (read a matriarchal--pull me over culture) that is all any male can be sure.

Rap
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 03:39 pm
Setanta wrote:
There is also no good reason to assume that the children of a homosexual man or woman will themselves be homosexual.


Seems to me, regardless of other possible circumstances raised, that the vast majority of gay people ARE the offspring of heterosexuals!
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Evolution 101 - Discussion by gungasnake
Typing Equations on a PC - Discussion by Brandon9000
The Future of Artificial Intelligence - Discussion by Brandon9000
The well known Mind vs Brain. - Discussion by crayon851
Scientists Offer Proof of 'Dark Matter' - Discussion by oralloy
Blue Saturn - Discussion by oralloy
Bald Eagle-DDT Myth Still Flying High - Discussion by gungasnake
DDT: A Weapon of Mass Survival - Discussion by gungasnake
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Is homosexuality an evolutionary mistake?
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 04/19/2024 at 08:50:22