Speaking Ill of the Dead

Most A2K members are offended by self-appointed purists demonstrating at the funerals of soldiers killed in action.

Is enthusiastic jubilation over Falwell's death a similar desecration?

Incidently, "Speak no ill of the dead," probably goes back to the times when ancestral spirits were supposed to be constantly haunting the living--and very powerful haunts.

Practically speaking, those who love the deceased have had their life fabric ripped and torn. Candid, "truthful" comments can start feuds that last for years and years.

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Addenda:

Most of us who observe a certain decorum about the recently dead also avoid pointless invective about people who are alive and healthy.

Calling our Commander in Chief a lily livered poltroon doesn't improve the situation in Iraq one bit. The Name Caller feels important and powerful, but the epithets expressed are only puffs of air.

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Roberta wrote:

I don't see it that way at all, Phoenix. I find no pleasure in in anyone's death. I can find pleasure that this person will no longer hurt anyone. I don't see this as semantics. I see this as a difference in wanting bad things to stop and being glad when they do, and wanting someone dead.

I hear you. The thing is, in many cases, one follows the other. The only way that the bad things stop is when the person doing the bad things is dead.

I have the expectation that when Castro takes his last breath, there will be dancing in the streets of Miami, and possibly Cuba (If the Cubans are not afraid of his heirs).

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Noddy24 wrote:

Addenda:

Most of us who observe a certain decorum about the recently dead also avoid pointless invective about people who are alive and healthy.

Calling our Commander in Chief a lily livered poltroon doesn't improve the situation in Iraq one bit. The Name Caller feels important and powerful, but the epithets expressed are only puffs of air.

but that doesn't change the validity of the statements...

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personally I take no joy in the passing of Falwell... but everything is fodder for a joke.... and if you put yourself forward as some sort of icon or authority then you better have a thick skin and you better expect what will happen after your death.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Bella Dea- I think that you are right in personal situations. I certainly would not "dis" a person at his funeral in front of his family. Actually, If I did not like the person, I would not even attend his funeral.

But what about a man who was an abuser, and made his wife and children miserable for years? Or a dictator, who lived in style, while his people starved? Or a sadist, who derived his pleasure from the misery of others?

Personally, I don't think that there is anything wrong in saying that the world is a better place since such a person died.

I think you would have to have lived that person's life, in order to feel qualified to judge that they deserve to die, or that their life has no worth. Many think this of you and I, because we refuse Allah. I deny their right to make that call, and I don't feel I have that right either.

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That goes back to de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est = "nothing must be said about the dead except the good".

Goes back to Diogenes Laërtius, the biographer of the Greek philosophers (who lived at some time between 200 AD and 500 AD).
He attributed it to Chilon of Sparta (about 620 BC-550 BC).

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Eorl- I never said that the person deserved to die, or that he had no worth. What I said was that I was glad that the person was no longer amongst us. That is my opinion, and I am entitled to it!

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It's not even an issue of "speaking ill of the dead" as I see it. Claiming the death as victory for humanity is what I find offensive. As Roberta and others pointed out, there is a distinct difference between "not being sad" and being "glad" at a person's demise. I think it devalues life.

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Eorl wrote:

It's not even an issue of "speaking ill of the dead" as I see it. Claiming the death as victory for humanity is what I find offensive. As Roberta and others pointed out, there is a distinct difference between "not being sad" and being "glad" at a person's demise. I think it devalues life.

and you don't think that saying 9/11 and AIDS were God's judgement on homosexuals devalues life? Karma pal.

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I went to a hippie dippie pinko-lefty elementary school. We all thought Reagan was a terrible president. When I was in 5th grade, there was an announcement over the intercom that Reagan had been shot. A cheer went up -- amongst the kids (I remember the cheer, I don't remember if I participated). My hippie dippie pinko-lefty teacher was FURIOUS. I don't think I ever saw him so mad before or since. We were subject to some very serious lectures and didn't do anything else for the rest of that day. It made a big impression on me.

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Well, Phoenix you said ...

Phoenix32890 wrote:

... I might very well share my happiness at that person's demise.

I somehow can understand this. But always thought it was part of some pre-antique cultures (that's e.g. one of the reasons why the Greek philosophers tried to change this).

It certainly is an attitude you're entitled to have.

As other - including me, sharing what e.g. Roberta said - have a different view.

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Bear, sure, there's Karma...and there's lowering yourself to his level. So he didn't value human life, individuality and freedom the way I do. I should adjust my values to match his?

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absolutely not and I salute you for choosing the path of enlightenment...

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sozobe wrote:

I went to a hippie dippie pinko-lefty elementary school. We all thought Reagan was a terrible president. When I was in 5th grade, there was an announcement over the intercom that Reagan had been shot. A cheer went up -- amongst the kids (I remember the cheer, I don't remember if I participated). My hippie dippie pinko-lefty teacher was FURIOUS. I don't think I ever saw him so mad before or since. We were subject to some very serious lectures and didn't do anything else for the rest of that day. It made a big impression on me.

For me, I think it was Harper Lee.

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For me, my old high school guidance counselor. When she died, I wasn't gleeful about it but when an old classmate tried to chastise me for not expressing sorrow, that's when I learned to appreciate the true meaning of hypocrisy and vowed to never indulge in such.

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BM

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sozobe wrote:

Yeah, delight and death just don't go together for me, no matter who died.

In some situations (a long, painful illness, for example), there might be relief.

How do you feel about relief as in: "One less fanatic religious hatemonger to deal with"?

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I have far fewer problems with "relief" than "delight."

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sozobe wrote:

I have far fewer problems with "relief" than "delight."

I can go along with that, soz.

Remember, we are talking about someone who has died of his/her own accord. We did not cause the death, either through malevolent thoughts or more direct means. We are not responsible for his death, only satisfied by its effect.

I am a bit surprised that no one addressed my remark about Castro and Miami.

Phoenix wrote:

I have the expectation that when Castro takes his last breath, there will be dancing in the streets of Miami, and possibly Cuba (If the Cubans are not afraid of his heirs).

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Speaking Ill of the Dead

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