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Wed 16 May, 2007 07:06 am
There is a thread running on the death of Jerry Falwell:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96354
A number of people were rather pleased at this man's demise, and expressed their pleasure. Other members thought that it was not appropriate to speak badly of a person who had just died, even though they might have not thought positively of him during his lifetime.
What do you think? Do you think that it is ok to state that you are pleased that someone has died, even if you have hated him during his lifetime?
Do you think that no matter what you thought about a person when he was alive, it is not appropriate to say negative things, especially expressing pleasure over his death?
Why do you think that people take either stand?
Do you think that there might be a correlation between religiosity, and one's attitude concerning discussing the dead in a negative light?
Black humor is black humor. Some people find it disgusting. The Irish just raise their glasses.
Phoenix, I have no objection to speaking ill of the dead, especially if you spoke ill of that person when he or she was alive. Anything else would be hypocrisy. My problem is not with speaking ill of the dead. My problem is that I can't say I'm glad someone is dead--because I'm not. Even someone I despised.
If you were a bastard in life, you're a bastard in death as well, IMO. I don't believe in putting a person on a pedestal just because they died. But I'm not dancing on anyone's grave either. They're gone. Finally. That's good enough for me.
Totally agree with Roberta. (And eoe.)
I think that it is a matter of degree. If it were someone whom I just severely disliked, I certainly would not gloat about his/her death. If it were someone whom I thought caused harm to people, I might very well share my happiness at that person's demise.
What I am attempting to ascertain though, is that there appears to be somewhat of a taboo about expressing delight that someone is no longer living. I wonder where that comes from?
I don't think you should do it in certain situations, such as at the funeral or showing. Or to certain people, like the family.
If you didn't like someone in life, you don't like them in death. But it's better to say nothing at all if you can't say something nice.
Rings true in life and in death.
Talking bad about him won't change who he was or what he did and rejoicing that he died is just terrible, IMO.
But, for some people, talking it just talking and it means nothing other than venting a frustration with the way this man lived his life.
I think that the intention behind the banter is what makes it go from tasteless to downright cruel.
Phoenix32890 wrote: I think that it is a matter of degree. If it were someone whom I just severely disliked, I certainly would not gloat about his/her death. If it were someone whom I thought caused harm to people, I might very well share my happiness at that person's demise.
What I am attempting to ascertain though, is that there appears to be somewhat of a taboo about expressing delight that someone is no longer living. I wonder where that comes from?
I don't view it as a taboo, Phoenix, although somebody else might. All I'm saying is that I personally cannot find pleasure in someone's death--although I can be glad that they're no longer doing stuff that was bad or wrong or harmful.
Roberta wrote:Phoenix, I have no objection to speaking ill of the dead, especially if you spoke ill of that person when he or she was alive. Anything else would be hypocrisy. My problem is not with speaking ill of the dead. My problem is that I can't say I'm glad someone is dead--because I'm not. Even someone I despised.
I'm sort of the same mind set - if you didn't like some one before or things that they did - do you all of a sudden think how they lived was o-k? Should we now say nice things about Hilter?
But I do not think you should wish some one dead - to me it is like killing that person. I simply believe thou shall not kill so I wouldn't wish death on some one or say I'll glad s/he's dead. Especially some one that you may have simply disagreed with their philosphies.
Phoenix32890 wrote: I think that it is a matter of degree. If it were someone whom I just severely disliked, I certainly would not gloat about his/her death. If it were someone whom I thought caused harm to people, I might very well share my happiness at that person's demise.
What I am attempting to ascertain though, is that there appears to be somewhat of a taboo about expressing delight that someone is no longer living. I wonder where that comes from?
I stated above that to me delighting in some one death is similar to wishing some one dead or indirectly killing them. That is what is taboo - I can understand wishing some one dead that has killed several people or caused great suffering. I still would not express delight in their death, but rather express sadness at what a horrible life this person led. But that definately stems from my personal and religious beliefs.
Yeah, delight and death just don't go together for me, no matter who died.
In some situations (a long, painful illness, for example), there might be relief.
I'm not sure if it ever gets stronger than that, though. "Delight" feels wrong, no matter who died. In terms of people who have died in my lifetime, Jeffrey Dahmer was monstrous, and it all happened in Wisconsin when I lived there so I followed things closely... but I didn't feel any happiness when he died. More of a sigh and an "oh well."
Bella Dea- I think that you are right in personal situations. I certainly would not "dis" a person at his funeral in front of his family. Actually, If I did not like the person, I would not even attend his funeral.
But what about a man who was an abuser, and made his wife and children miserable for years? Or a dictator, who lived in style, while his people starved? Or a sadist, who derived his pleasure from the misery of others?
Personally, I don't think that there is anything wrong in saying that the world is a better place since such a person died.
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Personally, I don't think that there is anything wrong in saying that the world is a better place since such a person died.[/color][/b]
I agree. But this isn't the same as saying you're glad this person is dead.
He was caught and imprisoned -- another prisoner killed him. He didn't need to be killed to stop killing.
I was glad he was caught and imprisoned. I wasn't terribly upset that he was killed. But I was not glad, happy, or delighted.
I wasn't glad that Dahmer had died. I was glad when he was caught and imprisoned for life.
For me, to be happy about someone's death would require absolute certainty on my part that their life had absolutely zero positive function. Not merely that the overall balance of my judgement was in the negative, but that they had never done anything positive, ever. That nobody had ever loved them, that nobody had tears of joy on the day they first said "I love you" to a parent. Even Hitler doesn't meet that criteria, (though I wail at every life that bastard took.) Life, and especially human life, is just too damn precious to me. Perhaps it's a flaw of foolish naivety on my part.
I was certainly shocked at the callous hatred shown by so many of those I thought to be liberal minded people. It was the kind of reaction I would expect from those who followed him, rather than those who despised him. I just don't get it.
Phoenix32890 wrote:Roberta wrote:Phoenix32890 wrote:
Personally, I don't think that there is anything wrong in saying that the world is a better place since such a person died.[/color][/b]
I agree. But this isn't the same as saying you're glad this person is dead.
Roberta- I think that you are playing with semantics. I think that both statements amount to the same thing.
I don't see it that way at all, Phoenix. I find no pleasure in in anyone's death. I can find pleasure that this person will no longer hurt anyone. I don't see this as semantics. I see this as a difference in wanting bad things to stop and being glad when they do, and wanting someone dead.
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