Lindsay water softener

Boy, I would hate to say it, but I would consider replacing the whole unit with a more efficient demand model.

Is your unit a cabinet type model where the softener tank is inside the brine salt drum?

A unit that old would need the resin changed as well. By the time you have it all rebuilt, the cost would nearly match that of some newer (cheap) models and it would still be an outdated technology.

We have replaced quite a few of those Lindsay models.

you could replace the valve only with a generic Fleck valve for a few hundred dollars.

Andy Christensen, CWS

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softener
Thanks for the reply,Andy. Yes, I suppose you are correct. Should replace complete softener. The Lindsay that I have has a 400# salt tanks, in good shape, and a 10" x 46" resin tank. It had a new valve put on a few years back, can't find any ID on the valve. Black plastic of some kind. Guess I'm a little undecided for now. Again, thanks for the reply!!! jps

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Over the years I've done a lot of control valve replacements on various brands of softeners and compared to the price of a new softener from a local brand name dealer, you'll save a ton of bucks usually but... compared to an internet dealer, it's not worth the hassel or expense. So I suggest you look at a new correctly sized softener using a Clack WS-1 control valve.

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Get yourself a brand new ECOWATER system and be happy Cool

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"compared to the price of a new softener from a local brand name dealer, you'll save a ton of bucks usually but... compared to an internet dealer"

You may want to consider another alternative, a local independent water treatment professional would usually supply an industry standard softener and service (that you wouldn't get from a long distance seller) at a more modest cost than a local brand name dealer.

Considering that age of your current softener it's earned its retirement. I agree that you should be looking a new, and more efficiently operating, softener rather than bringing the old one back to (inefficient) life.

It never hurts to have more options :wink:

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new water softeners
Are the new water softeners that much more efficient? Water is 22-25 grains of hardness, treated for iron removal at the water treatment plant, rural water system, magnesium removal treatment and chlorinated. Two in the household , 3000gal. per month is water used. Not sure what the water pressure is, I'd guess between 40-50 #. Can be adjusted as needed. Water tower not too far away! What size softener do I need. jps

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jps,

The older softeners were "timer" based. They were set to regenerate every "X" days regardless of the actual water usage.

Today's softeners are "demand" based. They count the number of gallons actually used and regenerate when they reach the "0" gallon count. The "0" is calculated by considering the SFR (service flow rate) of your plumbing, the conditions of your water (iron, manganese, hardness, TDS, and other things), the number of people in (or expected to be in) your house, and any specialty water usage (jaccuzzi or hot tub for example). By regenerating based on gallon usage the softener regenerates less often saving water (used in the regeneration) and salt (or potassium).

The MOST efficent softeners are twin resin tank softeners with a brine tank. Those softeners, like Kinetico or Fleck 9x00 based softeners) regenerate the instant the "0" gallon count is reached rather than waiting until 2am the way single resin tank softeners do. The twin resin tank softeners provide soft water 24/7 where the single resin tank softeners give hard water to service while they regenerate. Agreed, that they are often set to regenerate at 2am (which doesn't change the fact that they supply hard water while regenerating).

Twin resin tank softeners also regenerate the resin using SOFT water which makes the resin last longer while the single resin tank softeners regenerate the resin using hard water which is sort of like washing clothes in dirty water, if you get my drift :wink: .

At 3000 gallons used a month that's only 100 gallons per day for two people which is modest. With iron being treated at the "head end" you won't have to deal with it. You'll have to figure treating the manganese into the softener calculation though.

Looks like a 1.5 cu ft (48k) softener will fit nicely and provide water flow at 12gpm which is probably higher than the SFR of your plumbing so hardness "leakthrough" should not be a problem.

As you shop for a softener see how the dealer's recommendations compare with these numbers.

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justalurker is right. Twin tank systems can be very efficient.

If you selected one particular metered model at, let's say 27gpg just to make sure there was no bleed through, you would use 20 lbs of salt per month and 180 gallons of water to regenerate at the given amount you stated.

This would also assure you of continuous soft, treated water.

It removes 5,326 grains per pound of salt.

Andy Christensen, CWS

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Yes if you don't want to be a DIYer and assemble your own softener and service it when needed, then go to a local independent dealer.

BTW, assembly takes less than 30 minutes and you'll be intimately familiar with your softener and you know it was put together with the correct parts. And you can't do it wrong.

justalurker did his that he bought from me. My record is twin 72 year old sisters less than 5' tall. They also installed the softener themselves in about 3 hrs; it's simple A to B to C to D plumbing. IIRC justalurker did his. And if you don't want to solder, use the same flexible SS tubing that justalurker (as Steve or SMS) suggests on my forum. If you were to look it up, you can see a picture of his softener using a Clack WS-1. Lately he says he isn't using it anymore. I think he scrounged a used Kinetico; I think he called it a "returned unit". Yet on my forum he says most people don't have a need for a twin tank type softener. I agree, without a proven need, no one needs a twin tank softener.

Anyway, he says a twin tank is "most efficient" and better because it uses softened water to regenerate instead of hard water which he seems to think is a bad thing for the resin... like dirty clothes are bad for a clothes washer! it isn't. Hardness doesn't bother any cation resin in any way.

Plus, if the twin tank and regular softener both have the same size resin tank, and the same volume of the same type of resin, they both have exactly the same "efficiency". Note that Andy, a twin tank Kinetico salesman, says "can be very efficient"; which is not the same as "MOST efficient". I'd go with the Kinetico salesman before justa neighborhood softener user.

1 Reply

Gary Slusser wrote:

Yes if you don't want to be a DIYer and assemble your own softener and service it when needed, then go to a local independent dealer.

Simply offering another option besides do-it-yourself... your way is not the only way.

Gary Slusser wrote:

justalurker did his that he bought from me. My record is twin 72 year old sisters less than 5' tall. They also installed the softener themselves in about 3 hrs; it's simple A to B to C to D plumbing. IIRC justalurker did his. And if you don't want to solder, use the same flexible SS tubing that justalurker (as Steve or SMS) suggests on my forum. If you were to look it up, you can see a picture of his softener using a Clack WS-1. Lately he says he isn't using it anymore. I think he scrounged a used Kinetico; I think he called it a "returned unit".

It would be nice to see you use more timely quotes referring to me than from years ago. Some of us learn from our mistakes and quoting what we thought or said before getting abused by you is not accurately reflecting what we know now. Some old dogs refuse to learn any new tricks... and some old dogs refuse to learn ANY tricks at all.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Yet on my forum he says most people don't have a need for a twin tank type softener. I agree, without a proven need, no one needs a twin tank softener.

Twin tank softeners have advantages.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Anyway, he says a twin tank is "most efficient" and better because it uses softened water to regenerate instead of hard water which he seems to think is a bad thing for the resin... like dirty clothes are bad for a clothes washer! it isn't. Hardness doesn't bother any cation resin in any way.

Early onset senility Gary? You have a proclivity for misquoting with GROSS INNACURACY... I said "while the single resin tank softeners regenerate the resin using hard water which is sort of like washing clothes in dirty water" which has an entirely different meaning than what you said I said.

Since it seems that you won't stop dragging me personally into your replies when I have not brought you up in mine how about quoting me accurately?

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Gary Slusser wrote:

My record is twin 72 year old sisters less than 5' tall.

I can't top that ... You win!

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justalurker wrote:

The MOST efficent softeners are twin resin tank softeners with a brine tank. Those softeners, like Kinetico or Fleck 9x00 based softeners) ...

Ah... so you did say what I said you said and what you now deny saying, as usual.

justalurker wrote:

Twin resin tank softeners also regenerate the resin using SOFT water which makes the resin last longer...

That simply is not true.

Quote:

while the single resin tank softeners regenerate the resin using hard water which is sort of like washing clothes in dirty water, if you get my drift :wink: .

Again, that's like saying the dirty clothes harm the clothes washer. It's sales hype. Otherwise the world's regular type softeners wouldn't last but a few months. And the truth is that they last decades.

As to talking about what you have said about the softener you bought from me and twin tank types not being needed. You also have said that you used the softener until very recently, that's just shy of three years but, you said what I said you said, in Nov 05; hardly "years ago".

And you still haven't proved that you aren't using the Clack WS-1 softener.... I'm still waiting for the picture of the returned/traded/used Kinetico in your garage.

Why don't you get totally candid and admit that you being upset with me has nothing to do with the equipment I sell and, that you do all you can to prevent anyone from buying from me?

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Again, that's like saying the dirty clothes harm the clothes washer. It's sales hype. Otherwise the world's regular type softeners wouldn't last but a few months. And the truth is that they last decades.

Washing dirty clothes with dirty water... the clothes washer could care less about diry water.

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OK, one more time, regenerating with softened water does not benefit the resin/softener. It does not make the softener that does more efficient or... said another way, regenerating with hard water does not cause damage to the resin. And I'll now throw in upflow/counter-current regeneration. It is no more efficient than downflow/co-current regeneration.

Anyone saying different is a victim of marketing hype or they have an agenda to support the sale of a twin tank type sofftener. Either way they should be made to prove their claim, and proof isn't repeating what a Kinetico salesman tells you or what you'd like to beleive.

BTW, I sell twin tank softeners every time there is a need for one. Few houses have the need for one.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

OK, one more time, regenerating with softened water does not benefit the resin/softener. It does not make the softener that does more efficient or... said another way, regenerating with hard water does not cause damage to the resin. And I'll now throw in upflow/counter-current regeneration. It is no more efficient than downflow/co-current regeneration.

OK, one more time and I'll go slowwwwwww... according to a Purolite representative regenerating with soft water makes increases the softening capacity of the resin over the same resin regenerated with hard water.

Purolite, you know them? They make the resin you sell, oops I mean the resin you drop ship.

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Here's a copy from the thread started by AndyC dated 1/15/2006 on the Purolite forum
http://www.puroliteusa.com/fr_bulletinboard.htm and his answer to my question saying:
Posted by Gary Schreiber, CWS VI on 01/18/06 at 19:18 from 206.9.90.114

In reply to: Re: Co-current vs counter current regeneration posted by Gary Slusser on 01/18/06 at 11:18

You asked: "My statement "co-current and counter-current are equally salt efficient" is based on both type softeners using the same type resin and the same salt dose. IOWs, the salt efficiency grains/lb will be the same regardless if co-current or counter-current (upflow or downflow) brining is used. Is that true?". Yes.
************

Prior to that he said:
Posted by Gary Schreiber, CWS VI on 01/15/06 at 18:24 from 199.86.19.54

In reply to: Re: Co-current vs counter current regeneration posted by AndyC on 01/15/06 at 10:03

Regeneration with soft water is better than regenerating with hard water. The obvious "why" of that is the lack of a hardness load on the resin reducing capacity after regeneration. Resin life can, in some cases, be extended by regenerating with soft water. Salt efficiency is not likely affected by a soft water regeneration. Equipment maintenance is likely to be less with soft water regeneration. Produced water quality is not likely to be improved.

The only "out performance" of a single tank over a twin tank system is capital cost is less for a single tank system.
*******************

That was in reply to a packed bed and if you look at "The obvious "why" of that is the lack of a hardness load on the resin reducing capacity after regeneration.", if the very slight reduction in capacity allows regenereation to occur prior to the leakage increasing noticably, then there is no advantage to soft water regeneration. Also, "Resin life can, in some cases, be extended by a soft water regeneration.". Do you have any ideas as to what cases he is refering to?

BTW, the efficiency of a twin tank is reduced due to the use of salt to create the capacity used for every soft water regeneration. Which will usually be greater or equal to the two tank type softeners' reserve capacity loss of efficiency the twin tank salesmen claim.

I size all my two tank (regular/normal) softeners to give 0 gpg leakage between regenerations on an 8 day service run. The vast majority of those softeners use fewer than 9 lbs per regeneration and most are around 3-5 lbs total. That's =<9 lbs per 8 days and in the realm of 3333+ grains/lb salt efficiency using sodium chloride. Show me a twin that will do that and use 50-75 total gallons of water on an average 8 day basis with calendar override on day 8 with with a continuous SFR sufficient to produce 0 gpg leakage between co-current (downflow) regenerations.

Now I'd appreciate it if you can prove me wrong. Note there was no mention of damage to resin that are downflow brined...

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Gary Slusser wrote:

OK, one more time, regenerating with softened water does not benefit the resin/softener. It does not make the softener that does more efficient

That's what you said, poor grammer but, right there... read it again. And that is wrong according to a representative of Purolite. Having access to fact and not opinion I contacted the representative and posed the EXACT statement you made and asked yes or no?

His response to your statement was "regenerating with soft water increases the softening capacity of the resin over the same resin regenerated with hard water" and I posted that.

If you disagree then contact Purolite. I'm sure they'd appreciate you explaining to them exactly how the resin they design, manufacture, and sell all over the world works. Purolite's answer is sufficient for me.

I pursued the facts as they related to what YOU said. You choose to post a thread from another forum that is on an entirely different point then what you said and I responded to by contacting the Purolite representative.

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justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
OK, one more time, regenerating with softened water does not benefit the resin/softener. It does not make the softener that does more efficient

That is a true statement unless we are talking iron water. No matter how much you might like the idea that it will.

Here, with added emphasis by me in bold, is what you actually said:
justalurker wrote:
OK, one more time and I'll go slowwwwwww... according to a Purolite representative regenerating with soft water makes increases the softening capacity of the resin over the same resin regenerated with hard water."

Makes increases...? What that means in your opinion is not what actually happens. IT DOES NOT INCREASE THE CAPACITY. A higher salt dose will increase capacity but softened water regeneration will not INCREASE capacity. Hard water regeneration will reduce the capacity BUT, who cares? It IS NOT going to be usable capacity.

If you still think it is usable capacity, how much capacity will remain in the bed due to soft water regeneration AND how does the softener get to use that INCREASED capacity as you call it and interpret what Purolite has said?

Go back to the Purolite rep and ask if this is true or not, yes or no: The hard water uses capacity where the softened water doesn't B U T... you set the capacity of all softeners by the salt dose in a given volume and type of resin; regardless of what brand of resin. Regeneration uses maybe 120 max in LARGE residential softeners but most use 35-70 gallons (times the gpg of hardness gives you the amount of capacity used); it is based on the physical size in cubic feet of resin. You also regenerate the resin before leakage becomes noticeable to the household OR the leakage (=<1gpg) causes problems with whatever the water is being used for in commercial/industrial customer locations (usually in ppm or mg/l). Thereby ALL softeners waste capacity because they regenerate before the total capacity is used. YES or NO.

Then ask if regenerating with softened water uses capacity and thereby salt, and how much (again, you can find out how much based on the volume of resin, gallons of water and how hard the water is in gpg). YES or NO.

Check all of that out and let me know who disagrees with that. Have them email it to me.

justalurker wrote:
Purolite, you know them? They make the resin you sell, oops I mean the resin you drop ship.

About 99% of all internet dealers drop ship, so what, it decreases the cost of the equipment we sell and that benefits our customers. Internet or local dealers that stock inventory and do their own packaging and shipping must raise the price of the equipment they sell and their customers pay for it. It sounds as if you think OPWC doesn't drop ship.

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I don't pretend to be a chemist or an engineer. You made a statement, I referred that statement to a Purolite rep, I posted what they said.

Based on the fact that Purolite makes the resin I choose to believe them rather than you. Now you qualify your statement with "BUT, who cares?". I don't really care but fact is fact and opinion is opinion. When it comes to resin Purolite has more credibility than you. I didn't interpret their response I posted it as I received the statement.

Gary Slusser wrote:

It sounds as if you think OPWC doesn't drop ship.

Sure they do, but with a smile. Not all long distance sellers of anything are bad... there are some that give the good ones a bad name. Just like not all local sellers of anything are bad, but at least looking them in the eye it's easier to tell if they're lying than looking at the phone or the keyboard and then paying your money to find out later they screwed you.

Your position is that anyone who buys water treatment equipment locally is a fool. Anyone who wants service along with their equipment is a fool. Any one who can't install a water softener is a fool. Anyone who doesn't buy from you is a fool.

On the contrary, people who judiciously shop for exactly what they want and need are making intelligent and informed choices.... hardly the mark of fools.

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Lindsay water softener

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