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What separates the religious from the non-religious?

 
 
maporsche
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 06:49 am
I don't know why people feel the need to believe. My anectodal experience is many (80%) all of the un-religious people I know deciding to attend church after they have a baby. There are non-church goers before the baby and devout Christians after the baby. The reasons that they have told me are because they need to feel that their baby is protected/safe, and a self-admitted need to believe that if something happened to their child that they would go to a better place. A belief in god solves both of those needs. Those are two very natural beliefs and desires for a parent I would imagine. I myself am not a parent yet, and I wonder if my opinions would change after I become one. I hope not.

I wonder what the breakdown is of atheist parents vs. atheist non-parents.

Also, you have to see that the church acts as a surrogate family. As children (actual children, not children of god) you have your parent's to guide you and help you through the difficult parts. As adults you have god to do the same. In fact you are considered a child of god, god is the father (yet so are priests), fellow church-goers are your 'brother and sisters' in god.
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Mills75
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 06:51 am
Re: What separates the religious from the non-religious?
rosborne979 wrote:
I have always asked the question differently: Why do some people belive in magic and others don't? Avoiding the intricacies of religious dogma, the root of the question comes down to whether you believe you are capable of understanding the world around you (naturalism), or whether you believe the world exceeds your ability to understand (supernatural). Religious and non-religious beliefs aline along those basic lines.

To clarify: you view the difference between the religious and the non-religious as the difference between ignorance and understanding?
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Mills75
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 07:00 am
maporsche: non-churchgoing isn't the same as non-religious. I've observed the same phenomenon, but only in 'lapsed' Christians (folks who were raised Christian, consider themselves Christian, but don't attend church), never in non-religious friends (those who subscribe to no established religious belief system).
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rosborne979
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:34 am
Re: What separates the religious from the non-religious?
Mills75 wrote:
To clarify: you view the difference between the religious and the non-religious as the difference between ignorance and understanding?


No. It's the difference between believing that you can understand, or believing that you can't.

It doesn't have a right or wrong answer, they are both just beliefs. But the choice a person makes, whether it's right or wrong, tells you something about the person.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:40 am
If the non-religious were separated from the religious by placing all of the religious people on another planet, i'd be content.
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neologist
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 09:28 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
neo, You stepped into that one with your eyes wide open? LOL
I guess you're right. I should never overestimate the understanding of others.
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Treya
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 03:02 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Treya wrote:
What separates the religious from the non-religious?


Certain thought processes are more comfortable for some people than others. I believe that all people will eventually settle on a way of thinking that is most comfortable for them.

The particular thoughts that a person finds most attractive are the result of a combination of nature and nurture, biology and experience.

I haven't found anyone yet who dislikes their own viewpoint.

To be specific, some people prefer logical construction and analysis, and are uncomfortable with subjective emotional motivations. Other people are drawn to the warmth of emotional feeling and trust them even though they are subjective and frequently in conflict with logic.

I have always asked the question differently: Why do some people belive in magic and others don't? Avoiding the intricacies of religious dogma, the root of the question comes down to whether you believe you are capable of understanding the world around you (naturalism), or whether you believe the world exceeds your ability to understand (supernatural). Religious and non-religious beliefs aline along those basic lines.


That's a cool way of looking at it rosborne. Did you read the article that Mills linked us to? What do you think about the changes in the brain due to these spiritual experiences?

Mills75 wrote:
Treya wrote:
What do you think the chances are of it being scientific? Like a chemical imbalance in the brain or something? Is that too far of a stretch?

Actually, I read an article in the New York Times some months ago that discussed scientific findings suggesting a biological basis for religious/spiritual experience. Apparently, humans are hard-wired to have these experiences. I was unable to find that article quickly, but this link briefly mentions similar research:
http://www.upenn.edu/researchatpenn/article.php?323&soc
(It would be best to c & p this url--clicking on it doesn't seem to work properly.)


Wow that was a really interesting article Mills! Thank you for sharing. That's right along the lines of what I was wondering about. Hey... if you find that other article would you mind giving me a link? I'd really like to read it. Or if you remember the name of the article I could help you look for it too. Did anyone else read that?


Thomas, your perspective is very interesting. I never thought of it that way before. I understand what you are saying about the difference being too small yet I find it pretty interesting. Mostly because I've been on both sides of the fence I guess and it would be interesting to me to figure out, if it is possible that is, where those "spiritual experiences" came from. Do you know what I mean?


Maporsche, that kind of lines up with what rosborne was saying. Somewhere along the lines of people looking for something that's comfortable. That fits their needs. Though I find it interesting that the parents wouldn't be very concerned with themselves being "protected" before having their baby. So let me ask you this... why do you suppose that though they apparently thought they were doing pretty good protecting themselves...they suddenly think they will be unable to protect their own child and need to turn to God for that?
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Wilso
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 05:22 pm
Eternal life v's Rotting in the ground. Which do you think the weak minded will choose?
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maporsche
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 05:24 pm
Treya wrote:

Maporsche, that kind of lines up with what rosborne was saying. Somewhere along the lines of people looking for something that's comfortable. That fits their needs. Though I find it interesting that the parents wouldn't be very concerned with themselves being "protected" before having their baby. So let me ask you this... why do you suppose that though they apparently thought they were doing pretty good protecting themselves...they suddenly think they will be unable to protect their own child and need to turn to God for that?



I think it was fear of the unknown?

I've also seen with some of my friends who's children are older, 4-5 years old, that they often stop going to church when their kids reach this age, thinking about it I would imagine that they think they've pretty much got the routine down.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 05:51 pm
It's so easy to stereotype the OTHER side. I do so with fundamentalist religions, whether Christian or Muslim. I see them as very narrow and dangerous. But some forms of Islam and Christianity are spirituallly deep. It's very important to distinguish between spiritual religion and doctrinal religion. We should also recognize that some religions have no God or gods, only the search for the deepest forms of human experience.
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Treya
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 07:18 pm
But JL don't you think that all religions claim some form of spirituality?
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 07:27 pm
Yes, but that doesn't make them spiritual--as I define it.
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Treya
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 07:46 pm
Gotcha. So how do you distinguish between the two then?
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neologist
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 07:49 pm
Wilso wrote:
Eternal life v's Rotting in the ground. Which do you think the weak minded will choose?
Tell us. Which one will you choose?
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Asherman
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:08 pm
Define what you mean by the term "spirituality".

JL and I are Buddhists who don't believe in either a "soul' or "god" as most often described in the West. The Preceptive World is without substance, it is an illusion that we exist, and exist as part of a universe of multiplicity. That which dreams this world is indivisible and indefinable in terms of time and space. That from which the objective world springs is not exactly what someone in the Abrahamic tradition would call "spiritual". To us there is no dichotomy between "body" and "spirit", both alike are illusory.

Neologist,

"Eternal life v. Rotting in the ground. Which do you think the weak-minded will choose?"

There is no choice between the two. "Dead is dead", in the immotal words of Young Frankenstein. The result is the same no matter what an individual might choose. A better wording of your second sentence might be, "Which do you think the weak will choose to believe in?" Choices like this one is equally available to the person regardless of whether they have a wall filled with degrees, or is so feeble-minded that nothing more than minimal literacy is ever possible. At both ends of the intellectual capability spectrum the result is the same ... a matter of personal belief that is ultimately meaningless.

I choose to believe that death is as illusory as life. To "die" is to have a moment of awakening that holds the potential for total extinction and merging back into that from which we never left.
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Treya
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:18 pm
Asher I'll have to get back to you on that tomorrow. Time for bed. Night.
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rosborne979
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 08:48 pm
Treya wrote:
That's a cool way of looking at it rosborne. Did you read the article that Mills linked us to? What do you think about the changes in the brain due to these spiritual experiences?


Hi Treya,

Yes, I read it. I think the changes in the brain are causing the spiritual experiences, just like certain drugs can cause near death experiences.

What did you think about the article?
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Wilso
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 10:00 pm
neologist wrote:
Wilso wrote:
Eternal life v's Rotting in the ground. Which do you think the weak minded will choose?
Tell us. Which one will you choose?


We're both going to rot in the ground pal. The difference between you and me is that I'm not scared of it.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2007 10:40 pm
Thanks, Ash. I wish I could put buddhist thought into words like you. It would obviate so much struggling. I particularly like your reminder that "personal belief... is ultimately meaningless". All our understandings are illusory or meaningless ULTIMATELY. But our illusory selves function as components of a RELATIVISTIC dream world (what you call multiplicity). And THAT world is the world in which we all love, grieve, hate, create and die. All the meaningfulness of our life is illusory (our Schopenhaurian idea). It is our unenlightened "everything", our Great Attachment, which is why we all fear death, the end of our dream.
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Asherman
 
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Reply Tue 17 Apr, 2007 09:21 am
I greatly doubt that either of us personally fear death, or look forward to it for that matter. Buddhism really does work, just not always in the manner that folks expect. Some day we must share a shot of good single-malt ... the American version of a cup of char. Very Happy
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