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Gospels by eye-witnesses?

 
 
Iasion
 
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 04:29 pm
Greetings all,

Here is an essay which I thought readers may be interested to see :

Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

by Diogenes the Cynic (from Internet Infidels)
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=117382


Only two of the canonical Gospels, Matthew and John, are alleged by tradition to have been written by eyewitnesses - but I will also address Mark and Luke.

First of all, I should say that none of the four canonical Gospels names its own author, none of them claim to be eywitness accounts or even to have spoken to eyewitness of Jesus. All are written in the third person and none of the authors tell us anything about themselves. All of the traditional ascriptions of authorship come from 2nd century tradition.


G.Mark

The first gospel written is Mark. Mark is not by tradition an eyewitness account but 2nd century tradition casts him as a secretary of the Apostle Peter who haphazardly wrote down everything Peter said in no particular order.

The basis for this tradition stems from a single claim by Papias who said (c. 130 CE) that he got the information from John the Presbyter (not to be confused with John the Apostle). That's it. That's the entire case for Mark as a secretary of Peter.

Now let's examine the credibility of this claim.

First, Mark does not say that he knew Peter, talked to Peter, ever met Peter or got any information from any eyewitness.

Secondly, the author is extremely hostile to Peter. Mark is a decidedly Pauline, anti-Jewish and anti-Petrine diatribe. Mark is very hostile to the apostles in general and to Peter in particular. He takes every opportunity to depict the apostles as being dense and not getting Jesus' true message (reflecting the tension between Pauline communities and the Jerusalem cult in the last half of the first century). More to the point (and this is important) Mark does not give Peter any redemption after his betrayal. Mark does not grant Peter and appearance from Jesus. Mark's Peter denies Jesus, runs away and that's it. Now why would a Petrine memoir not include a Petrine witness of the resurrection? Wouldn't that be the most important part? How does it make any sense to exclude it?

Thirdly, the book is quote obviously a literary construction and is manifestly not a transcription of oral anecdotes. The literary structure of Mark, both in its chiastic forms and its use of the Hebrew Bible as a allusory template or "hypertext" preclude the possibility of transcribed oral tradition. GMark is a carefully constructed literary work.

It should also be mentioned that Mark is a Greek composition which shows no signs of translation from Aramaic, the language of Peter and the language he would have dictated his memoirs in.

Fourth, Mark makes a number of errors regarding Palestininan geography and Jewish laws and customs which show that his information could not have been collected from a Palestinian Jew. Mark's passion, in particular, is so riddled with factual. historical and legal inaccuracies that it cannot be historical and cannot have come from an eyewitness. (I will address the specific errors in the section devoted to that subject)

Fifth, the book could not have been written during the lifetime of Peter. Mark knows about the destruction of the Temple which means that Peter was dead (at least by Christian tradition) when the book was written.

To summarize, the canonical Gospel of Mark is an anonymous book written outside of Palestine in a Gentile language to a Gentile audience sometime during or after the Jewish-Roman War. The author is hostile to Jews and to the apostles. He does not know Jewish laws or customs. He does not know the geography of Palestine. He does not like Peter. He never makes any claim to have known Peter or to have ever been to Palestine.

In 130 CE some guy said he heard from another guy that the author was a secretary of Peter's.


G.Matthew

Let's move on to Matthew. The Gospel of Matthew, by tradition, is attributed to the apostle of that name. Like Mark, this authorship tradition stems from Papias (it was also claimed by Irenaeus but he was probably parroting Papias). Papias clamed that, "Matthew composed the sayings [of Jesus] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." In Adv. Haer. 3.1.1.

If such a Logia ever existed, it is not Canonical Matthew. GMatt is not a sayings gospel for one thing and was not written in Hebrew for another. Furthermore, GMatt is largely dependent on Mark and (most probably)another written sayings tradition (in Greek, not Hebrew) called Q. Matt's dependence on Mark also puts its date somewhere around 80 CE (if not later) which is pushing the envelope for the plausibility of the author being a contemporary of Jesus. It's not impossible, of course, but this is an era when people generally didn't live much past forty or fifty years of age.

The bigger obstacle for apostolic authorship is that fact that Matthew copies so extensively from secondary sources. An eyewitness should not be expected to copy verbatim from a non-eyewitness.

There is also the fact that GMatt contains some of the more demonstrable fictions and signs of OT cannibalism but more on those aspects in their proper sections.

It also bears repeating that the author Matthew never claims to have been an apostle or a witness, never states his name and never claims to have known any other witnesses.

To sum up for Matthew:

Papias claims that an apostle named Matthew compiled a sayings Gospel in Hebrew.

The Canonical Gospel of Matthew is written in literary Greek and is not a sayings gospel. The author never claims to have been an apostle or an eyewitness. It relies heavily on secondary Greek sources as well as the Septuagint. Once again, an eyewitness would not rely on the accounts of non-witnesses to recount events that he had supposedly seen for himself. It was written at least 50 years after the alleged crucifixion. The author includes demonstrable fictions which can clearly be shown to have been derived from the Septuagint.

Papias' Logia, if it existed, has never been found.



G.Luke

The traditional author of Luke-Acts is supposedly a physician and travelling companion of Paul named Luke. Neither Luke nor Paul is a witness of Jesus even by tradition so I suppose I could stop right there but I think I'll take the time to point out that even the tradition which does exist is dubious. First of all, the author of Luke-Acts never claims to have known Paul. The earliest known claim for this tradition comes from Irenaeus in the late 2nd century who probably based his conclusion on the "we passages" from Acts as well as a stray mention of someone named Luke in Philemon (the name turns up in a couple of the non-authentic Pauline letters as well but the authentic corpus onle mentions the name once in passing).

There is no reason whatever to suppose that the Luke mentioned by Paul has aything to do with either GLuke or Acts.

The "we" passages in Acts are those passages during which the narrative voice changes from third person to first person plural. This is the source of the supposition that the author of Luke-Acts was a companion of Paul's but Vernon Robbins has shown that this was merely a Greek literary device for describing sea voyages.

Furthermore, Luke knew Josephus, which puts that gospel into the mid 90's CE at a bare minimum and probably later. This means that Paul had been dead 30 years before Luke-Acts was written. It is highly unlikely, then, that the book was written by a companion of Paul and there is absolutely no reason to connect the "Luke" who is so casually mentioned by Paul in one letter to the composition of Luke-Acts.

Furthermore, Luke is dependent on both Mark and Q which (contrary to some Christian folklore) means that Luke had no access to first hand accounts from other witneses.

There are also historical inaccuracies in Luke as well as contradictions with other Gospels which I will get to in time.

So, to sum up Luke, it is an anonymous gospel whose author makes no claim to first hand knowledge and no claim to knowledge even of Paul. It was written more than a half century after the crucifixion, is dependent on secondary sources and contains numerous historical errors and contradictions with the other gospels.

The fable of a physician named Luke who travelled with Paul comes from a claim made 150 years after the crucifixion and is corroborated by nothing in the text itself.


G.John

By tradition, the GJohn is written by the apostle of that name and is also identified as the mysterious "Beloved Disciple" mentioned within the text. This tradition, like Luke, stems from a late 2nd century claim by Irenaeus (who is known to have confused John the Apostle with another John, called 'the Presbyter" and may have been doing so again).

As with the other canonical Gospels, the author of GJohn does not identify himself or claim to be a witness (The seeming self-identification in 21:24 is a later redaction to the book, not part of the orginal manuscript and did not name the author "John" in any case. It is also not really a first person singular assertion, ("I wrote this") but a first person plural avowel that "we know" these were the words of a disciple (without naming the disciple).

Looking at the text of GJohn, we can see that any claim to the book as an eyewitness account does not hold water. First of all there is the very late date (c. 100 CE if not later) which puts it at the absolute edge of any plausible lifespan for a contemporary of Jesus. It also shows a heavy Hellenistic influence, both in its literary style and its theology. How does an illiterate Palestinian fisherman suddenly become proficient in stylized literary Greek and become aware of Alexandrian Jewish-Greek concepts like the Logos?

GJohn is also arguably the most anti-Jewish work. It goes beyond being just a polemic against the Pharisees or the priests and becomes a full on indictment of all Jewish people. Kind of weird since the author (like Jesus) was allegedly a Jew.

GJohn contains some of the longest, most otherwordly and most implausible speeches for Jesus. The length of the discourses in itself mitigates against their historicity simply by virtue of the implausibilty of those speeches surviving verbatim for 70 or more years in the memory of this fisherman (and nowhere else. These discourses are found nowhere else in early Christian literature). They do not have the short and sweet anecdotal quality of the Q pericopes which are easy to remember and transmit through oral tradition.

GJohn also shows layered authorship. It is not the contiguous work of a single author but the result of multiple redactions by multiple hands.

What is really the nail in the coffin, though, is that GJohn anachronistically retrojects the expulsion of Christians from Jewish synagogues (an event which occurred c. 85-95 CE) to within the life of Jesus. An eyewitness could not have made this mistake.

To sum up for John, it is an early 2nd century book which is heavily Hellenistic in its language and theology. It is markedly anti-Jewish, it contains speeches for Jesus which are not only incompatible with the character of Jesus as he is presented in the synoptics (not to mention that it simply strains all credulity that a 1st century Jewish audience would tolerate a guy claiming he was God) but simply cannot be credibly defended as authentic transcriptions of speeches remembered verbatim for 70 years by an illiterate Palestinian fisherman (and by nobody else) and then translated into Greek by that same fisherman. It contains contradictions with the synoptics which I will get to in time. It shows muliple hands of authorship and it contains an anachronism so glaring that it is a fatal blow to any consideration of eyewitness testimony.

Its traditional authorship stems from a single unreliable claim by Irenaeus (a guy who couldn't keep his "Johns" straight) around 180 CE.


Conclusion

None of the Gospels were written by any eye-witness to any historical Jesus.


Iasion
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:39 am
Just because Mark clearly and unashamedly reveals the apostles' weaknesses and failures (including Peter's) , doesn't make it 'anti-Peter'.

Would you expect an apostle to have been honest and transparent about his failures when talking with those he instructed, or not?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:58 am
Are you suggesting that the alleged apostles were in the business of teaching people at the time they were claimed to have followed the putative Jesus? As recall the "gospels," they were being educated just as was the crowd.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 12:00 pm
The most compelling part of this man's (woman's?) argument is the overwhelming evidence that the alleged "gospels" were not only not the work of witnesses of the events which they purport to describe, but that they are productions of the Pauline religion masquerading as Christianity.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 01:57 pm
real life wrote:

Just because Mark clearly and unashamedly reveals the apostles' weaknesses and failures (including Peter's) , doesn't make it 'anti-Peter'.

Would you expect an apostle to have been honest and transparent about his failures when talking with those he instructed, or not?


Setanta wrote:
Are you suggesting that the alleged apostles were in the business of teaching people at the time they were claimed to have followed the putative Jesus?


Well yes the gospels themselves state that very plainly. The apostles preached and performed miracles during the time before the crucifixion.

But my actual reference was to the period of time in which the gospel was being penned.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 01:58 pm
What evidence to you have, "real life," that any of the apostles were still alive when the "gospels" were written?
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 02:13 pm
bm
0 Replies
 
BDV
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 04:41 pm
To make things simple, why didn't Jesus (Or whatever his real name was) just write the book himself ? would have saved allot of hassle don't you think ? and when someone did make an effort to write something then why is there so many contradictions and BS about the mythical magic man? The book has changed so much that it probably started its life as a kids fantasy bedtime story, God help us if they find the Star Wars books in a thousand years time (well god help whoever is about at that time), as everyone will be worshipping luke, and bragging about his magical powers.
0 Replies
 
skeptical
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 06:43 pm
Quote:

To make things simple, why didn't Jesus (Or whatever his real name was) just write the book himself ? would have saved allot of hassle don't you think ? and when someone did make an effort to write something then why is there so many contradictions and BS about the mythical magic man? The book has changed so much that it probably started its life as a kids fantasy bedtime story, God help us if they find the Star Wars books in a thousand years time (well god help whoever is about at that time), as everyone will be worshipping luke, and bragging about his magical powers.


Very Happy OH MY GOD! BDV That was great!
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Mar, 2007 12:40 am
Setanta wrote:
The most compelling part of this man's (woman's?) argument is the overwhelming evidence that the alleged "gospels" were not only not the work of witnesses of the events which they purport to describe, but that they are productions of the Pauline religion masquerading as Christianity.


What is wrong with saying that the gospels agree with what Paul preached? You seem to think this a very big negative, but agreement between the Biblical texts is consistent with Christian belief.

I keep waiting for the OP's promised production of
Quote:
a number of errors regarding Palestininan geography and Jewish laws and customs
and
Quote:
historical inaccuracies in Luke as well as contradictions with other Gospels which I will get to in time.
etc which were repeatedly referred to, but never brought forth. No surprise there either.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Mar, 2007 10:20 am
The point about Paul is significant because if Paul's notion of what your boy Jeebus taught has colored all of the "gospels," there is no way of knowing that Jeebus actually taught what Paul claimed he did. Therefore, Christians may well not be following the teachings of your boy Hey-Zeus, but only what Paul wanted people to believe.

I'm content, however, with the thought that you are deluded about such matters, as you've demonstrated time and again that you are comfortably deluded about so many other things.
0 Replies
 
BDV
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Mar, 2007 11:01 am
How dare you talk about saul like that.... only joking, i think if a christian actually done away with the magic and fear of damnation to hell and actually read the bible, and checked up on proper history then they will see quite clearly that paul hated the christians (Led by James the just) and did quite allot nasty crimes on them (Quite like an ex-nazi becoming pope don't you think), and formed catholism rather than expanding christianity then they would realise what aload of crap judeo-christianity in its blend of sun and pagan worship actually is.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 11:30 am
Setanta wrote:
The point about Paul is significant because if Paul's notion of what your boy Jeebus taught has colored all of the "gospels," there is no way of knowing that Jeebus actually taught what Paul claimed he did. Therefore, Christians may well not be following the teachings of your boy Hey-Zeus, but only what Paul wanted people to believe.

I'm content, however, with the thought that you are deluded about such matters, as you've demonstrated time and again that you are comfortably deluded about so many other things.


Hi Setanta,

So, you seem to want to have it both ways.

If the Gospels and Paul's writings DISagree, then see the Bible contradicts itself.

If the Gospels and Paul's writings AGREE then see the Pauline influence has 'colored' them and we can't be sure they are accurate.

What evidence of Paul's influence of the Gospels is there? None, unless you insist that their non-contradiction with Paul's letters is somehow evidence of collusion.

I'd be interested to see some real indication of WHY and HOW someone thought Paul had influenced the gospels, instead of just assertions to that effect. (Non-contradictions aside, that is.)

Well anyway, hope you are having a great day. Cool
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Mar, 2007 02:29 pm
I haven't asserted that Paul did influence the gospels, i have only pointed out that the issue is significant with scholars, many of whom think that Paul may have edited the gospels.

As usual, you attempt at "logic" falls flat. You have erected a strawman. I have not contended that there are contradictions in the bible because of anything which Paul is alleged to have done.

Of course i'm having a good day, and all the more so when you make such a feeble attempt to claim that i've contradicted myself. As for whether or not Paul influenced the "gospels," i simply pointed out that many people think this is a significant issue--i haven't myself said that i know for a fact that this is the case. What i wrote specifically was: The point about Paul is significant because if[/size] Paul's notion of what your boy Jeebus taught has colored all of the "gospels," there is no way of knowing that Jeebus actually taught what Paul claimed he did. I didn't say that it had happended, just that this is the issue which makes Paul's possible participation in editing the gospels important.

You might have taken the time to read and understand, and realize that i specifically commented that it is not entirely certain that Luke was a companion of Paul, and that given the material he uses which appears to have come from Flavius Josephus, he was likely to have lived and written after Paul was dead. However, sadly, i've come not to expect reading comprehension and coherence of cognition from you.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Mar, 2007 07:51 am
Setanta wrote:
I haven't asserted that Paul did influence the gospels, i have only pointed out that the issue is significant with scholars, many of whom think that Paul may have edited the gospels.

As usual, you attempt at "logic" falls flat. You have erected a strawman. I have not contended that there are contradictions in the bible because of anything which Paul is alleged to have done.

Of course i'm having a good day, and all the more so when you make such a feeble attempt to claim that i've contradicted myself. As for whether or not Paul influenced the "gospels," i simply pointed out that many people think this is a significant issue--i haven't myself said that i know for a fact that this is the case. What i wrote specifically was: The point about Paul is significant because if[/size] Paul's notion of what your boy Jeebus taught has colored all of the "gospels," there is no way of knowing that Jeebus actually taught what Paul claimed he did. I didn't say that it had happended, just that this is the issue which makes Paul's possible participation in editing the gospels important.

You might have taken the time to read and understand, and realize that i specifically commented that it is not entirely certain that Luke was a companion of Paul, and that given the material he uses which appears to have come from Flavius Josephus, he was likely to have lived and written after Paul was dead. However, sadly, i've come not to expect reading comprehension and coherence of cognition from you.


Hi Setanta,

Other than tossing around the idea that Luke uses material which came from Josephus, you have given no evidence for such a position. (Naturally you may say 'well I didn't say I believed such.') If they have material in common it could as easily been the other way around, could it not?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Mar, 2007 11:39 am
Now you come close to contradicting yourself. The sources which Flavius Josephus used were Jewish sources, but you have claimed that Luke was not a Jew. If he was not a Jew, how do you allege that he used sources which were only available to Josephus as a Jew and a Pharisee? Do you now allege that you know that Luke was not a Jew, but that you also know that he could read Aramaic and Hebraic script? The point is that your thesis piles up more improbabilities. Josephus' work was published in Latin and in Greek, within a few years of their completion, and were therefore accessible to any reasonably well-educated writer in the Empire. The same is not true of the sources which Josephus used.

The reason i mentioned Luke was merely to point out that i have not definitely contended that Paul revised all of the "gospels." That is something about which i don't know. I have very good reason to assume that it is something about which you don't know either, but it appears that you are unwilling to admit that.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Apr, 2007 07:34 pm
Well you've certainly not provided any good reason or evidence that Paul altered the Gospels.

Alternately putting forth conflicting theses :

'the gospel according to Jesus (i.e Jesus' teaching recorded in the 4 gospels) and the gospel according to Paul (Paul's epistles) are contradictory'

and then

'Paul doctored the gospels to make them agree with his doctrine'

doesn't help much.

(Yes, I know, you haven't actually claimed you believed either, you just like to toss 'em out there.)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 11:00 am
That's right, i haven't made either claim.

And it is not a case that i "just like to toss them out there." The point i made, and found necessary to bring to your attention again, was that many scholars question whether or not the gospels were altered by Paul. My personal belief, which is neither terribly firm, and not at all important to me, is that i don't have any good reason to believe that the "gospels" were even in existence at the time Paul lived, so that i doubt that he would personally have altered them. However, it is also my personal belief that Paul had taken control of "christianity" and the Jesus myth to such an extent, that when the gospels were written they would have either conformed to the message Paul wished to have peddled, or would have been very shortly thereafter been edited.

But, as i insist upon, none of it is important to me, because all of you bible-thumpers are so wrapped up in stupid scriptural arguments from a fatally flawed document, that you miss entirely the core message which is attributed to the putative Jesus, which is that heaven and salvation lie within in you, and are a product of your attitude toward your fellow human beings, and not of doctrinaire adherence to any creed cobbled together by anyone.
paarsurrey
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2014 10:18 am
@Setanta,
Hi friend!

Quote:
"many scholars question whether or not the gospels were altered by Paul."


I would like to have quotes from such scholars with links to their works if possible.

Regards

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2014 11:13 am
Hey Paarsurrey this thread is 7 years old but is worth recycling so I can have fun putting atheists in their place..Smile
For example the long overblown essay in the first post ends with-
"Conclusion None of the Gospels were written by any eye-witness to any historical Jesus"

and yet Matthew and John were actual disciples, so who does the essay-writer think they were writing about, Mary Poppins?..Smile

In fact we know enough about the gospel-writers to be able to do a This Is Your Life show about them-

Gospel-writers Matthew and John were disciples and wrote their gospels in c70 AD and c95AD, Mark wrote his c60AD, he was a friend of Jesus's right-hand man Peter, and Luke wrote his c65AD, was a friend of Paul who spoke with the risen Jesus.

Matthew the disciple, formerly Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27) son of Alpheus, was formerly a tax collector (Luke 5:29-30) one of the 12 apostles handpicked by Jesus (Matthew 9:9), he wrote his gospel between c.60 and 80 AD after Mark wrote his first.

Mark, a friend of Jesus's righthand man Peter (1 Peter 5:13) also called John, Mark was a cousin of Barnabas (Colossians 4:10), a helpful co-worker of Paul (2 Timothy 4:11), and wrote his gospel c.60AD not long after some Apostolic Letters were written: i.e., James, Galatians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, and Romans. His mother was one of the Marys (Acts 12:12) from an influential and probably wealthy family, and so some speculated that the last supper was held in their home and that he was the young man in Mark 14:51-52 which is not in the other accounts.

Luke, a doctor (2 Tim. 4:11) and a gentile convert (Luke 1:2) probably by Paul who became his traveling companion (Acts 17:1; 20:5, 6-21:18 ). He wrote his gospel c.65 AD.

John the disciple, (John 13:23) son of Zebedee, the brother of James the "greater" (Matthew 4:21; 10:2; Mark 1:19; 3:17; 10:35) wrote his gospel c.95AD, the last to be written before Revelation. Also from a wealthy family (Mark 1:20; Luke 5:3; John 19:27). His mother was probably Salome (Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40). He was one of the closest disciples to Jesus among the twelve (Matthew 17:1; 26:37; Mark 5:37; 13:3). He was zealous (Matthew 20:20-24; Mark 3:17; 10:35-41; Luke 9:49, 54). He became one of the leaders of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:6; Galatians 2:9) and of the seven churches in Asia (Revelation 1:11). He was banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote Revelation.
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