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Baptist minister's question: Is your baby gay?

 
 
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 08:55 am
Updated:2007-03-15
Furor Over Baptist's 'Gay Baby' Article
By DAVID CRARY
AP
'Is Your Baby Gay?'

The Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., published an article titled "Is Your Baby Gay? What If You Could Know? What If You Could Do Something About It?"

The president of the leading Southern Baptist seminary has incurred sharp attacks from both the left and right by suggesting that a biological basis for homosexuality may be proven, and that prenatal treatment to reverse gay orientation would be biblically justified.

The Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., one of the country's pre-eminent evangelical leaders, acknowledged that he irked many fellow conservatives with an article earlier this month saying scientific research "points to some level of biological causation" for homosexuality.

Proof of a biological basis would challenge the belief of many conservative Christians that homosexuality - which they view as sinful - is a matter of choice that can be overcome through prayer and counseling.

However, Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., was assailed even more harshly by gay-rights supporters. They were upset by his assertion that homosexuality would remain a sin even if it were biologically based, and by his support for possible medical treatment that could switch an unborn gay baby's sexual orientation to heterosexual.

"He's willing to play God," said Harry Knox, a spokesman on religious issues for the Human Rights Campaign, a national gay-rights group. "He's more than willing to let homophobia take over and be the determinant of how he responds to this issue, in spite of everything else he believes about not tinkering with the unborn."

Mohler said he was aware of the invective being directed at him on gay-rights blogs, where some participants have likened him to Josef Mengele, the Nazi doctor notorious for death-camp experimentation.

"I wonder if people actually read what I wrote," Mohler said in a telephone interview. "But I wrote the article intending to start a conversation, and I think I've been successful at that."

Mohler began by summarizing some recent research into sexual orientation, and advising his Christian readership that they should brace for the possibility that a biological basis for homosexuality may be proven.

Mohler wrote that such proof would not alter the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality, but said the discovery would be "of great pastoral significance, allowing for a greater understanding of why certain persons struggle with these particular sexual temptations."

He also referred to a recent article in the pop-culture magazine Radar, which explored the possibility that sexual orientation could be detected in unborn babies and raised the question of whether parents - even liberals who support gay rights - might be open to trying future prenatal techniques that would reverse homosexuality.

Mohler said he would strongly oppose any move to encourage abortion or genetic manipulation of fetuses on grounds of sexual orientation, but he would endorse prenatal hormonal treatment - if such a technology were developed - to reverse homosexuality. He said this would no different, in moral terms, to using technology that would restore vision to a blind fetus.

"I realize this sounds very offensive to homosexuals, but it's the only way a Christian can look at it," Mohler said. "We should have no more problem with that than treating any medical problem."

Mohler's argument was endorsed by a prominent Roman Catholic thinker, the Rev. Joseph Fessio, provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Fla., and editor of Ignatius Press, Pope Benedict XVI 's U.S. publisher.

"Same-sex activity is considered disordered," Fessio said. "If there are ways of detecting diseases or disorders of children in the womb, and a way of treating them that respected the dignity of the child and mother, it would be a wonderful advancement of science."

Such logic dismayed Jennifer Chrisler of Family Pride, a group that supports gay and lesbian families.

"What bothers me is the hypocrisy," she said. "In one breath, they say the sanctity of an unborn life is unconditional, and in the next breath, it's OK to perform medical treatments on them because of their own moral convictions, not because there's anything wrong with the child."

Paul Myers, a biology professor at the University of Minnesota-Morris, wrote a detailed critique of Mohler's column, contending that there could be many genes contributing to sexual orientation and that medical attempts to alter it could be risky.

"If there are such genes, they will also contribute to other aspects of social and sexual interactions," Myers wrote. "Disentangling the nuances of preference from the whole damn problem of loving people might well be impossible."

Not all reaction to Mohler's article has been negative.

Dr. Jack Drescher, a New York City psychiatrist critical of those who consider homosexuality a disorder, commended Mohler's openness to the prospect that it is biologically based.

"This represents a major shift," Drescher said. "This is a man who actually has an open mind, who is struggling to reconcile his religious beliefs with facts that contradict it."
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,404 • Replies: 26
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 08:59 am
Huh, thats... interesting.
0 Replies
 
kate4christ03
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 09:53 pm
go to www.albertmohler.com to read the whole article
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 01:58 pm
The whole idea that one cannot control one's sexual feelings is bogus.

Some who derive pleasure from causing pain, or even from killing, say they cannot help it if they are that way. They 'don't get sexual stimulation like others, but does that make them bad?'

Still others whose sexual interest is in children will claim that this is just the way they are. Who are we to judge?

Well, it is an easy push off to claim that one 'can't help it' or 'was born that way'.

What if we accepted that rationale for other behaviors?

'Ever since I can remember, I had the urge to take what belonged to others. I guess I was born that way.'

'Since childhood, I've never enjoyed telling the truth the way others seem to. I guess I'm just different, but a prison sentence for fraud seems an awfully harsh punishment for just being who I am.'

'The first time I had the urge to peek in a girl's bedroom window was when I was 5. I guess I was just born that way. Why can't people accept me for who I am?'

Now I'll sit back and watch the fireworks. But will anybody address this without emotion, just plain logically?
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 02:25 pm
So you equate sexual interest and love between people of the same gender with being a sadist, murder, pedophile, peeping tom or a pathological liar?

Are people who are gay and remain faithful and monogomous "controlling their sexual urges"?
Or are they "out of control" because although they choose to remain faithful, it's to someone of the same gender?

I read this research a couple of months ago when it was in several major news publications and I was surprised at my own reaction.

I thought I had no bias against homosexuality at all-not on any level. But my first thought was that if I'd been gay, and I knew it was possible for me to be straight, I would choose to do that, just to avoid all the prejudice and hassle that being gay in today's society brings with it.

I then read the outraged reaction from several gay people, and understood that there was no way I could experience it fully, because my thinking about it was different than their thinking. I was able to discard potential "gayness" so easily because it isn't a piece or part of who I intrinsically am. For people who are gay though, and have been their entire life, it probably seems like abandoning or giving away a part of themselves and no matter how many problems it has caused in their life, is still part of who they are.

Conversely, I still thought that if I had a child, and I knew that child was going to be gay and there was some way to change that before the child was born, I'm ashamed to say, I thought that I would do that. I would not want my child to have to deal with any sort of difficulty (whether it was innate to who they were, or thrust upon them by ignorance in society) if they didn't have to.
I wondered what people who are gay would think about this. If their parent had had a chance to change their sexuality in the womb, would they have wanted their parents to?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 02:28 pm
Barring neurological disease or injury, there is scarcely any kind of behavior pattern that cannot be controlled by one who applies his will with positive reinforcement; as there are few, if any antisocial characteristics that cannot be acquired by rumination and practice.

But gay babies? Razz
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 02:39 pm
neologist wrote:
Barring neurological disease or injury, there is scarcely any kind of behavior pattern that cannot be controlled by one who applies his will with positive reinforcement; as there are few, if any antisocial characteristics that cannot be acquired by rumination and practice.

But gay babies? Razz

Not sexually active gay babies, but people who are born with what some believe is an inherent biologically based tendency to homosexuality, like someone is genetically programmed to be born with blue eyes or red hair.

Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? And if so, at what point in a person's life do you believe that choice is made- or to put it more personally, if you are heterosexual, at what point did you make that choice for yourself?

When I read Real Life's hypothetical five year old boy looking in a little girl's window, I thought to myself, that's exactly it. Some five year old boys want to look at five year old girls. Others want to look at five year old boys. How or why do you think that happens?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 02:52 pm
There was a time when I was 12 or 13; I believed I might be homosexual because I was attracted to some of the boys in my class. I agonized over that for most of my teen age years before I came to the realization that such feelings are normal, if not universal. What I object to is the assertion that such urges are in themselves reason to abandon focus in heterosexuality.

To be sure, each of us has a different hardwired inclination and many would struggle much more than I; but can anyone say truthfully that the homosexual lifestyle is medically or psychologically healthful? Definitely worth any struggle to escape. IMHO.

I could elaborate more on this.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 03:22 pm
Quote:
To be sure, each of us has a different hardwired inclination and many would struggle much more than I; but can anyone say truthfully that the homosexual lifestyle is medically or psychologically healthful? Definitely worth any struggle to escape. IMHO.


I can only guess that it would be more psychologically healthful to be who you really are than to try to pretend to be something you are not (ie, remain closeted in shame or deceitful in terms of feigning interest in people and/or relationships which really hold no allure for you, so that you can be socially acceptable). I think that would take a terrible psychological toll on someone, especially if it was never reconciled over the course of an entire lifetime.

Medically, I don't think there are very many issues health-wise with lesbianism, (except childlessness, which does tend to lead to health issues since women's bodies are designed to carry and nurture children, and any change to that seems to result in higher incidences of certain types of cancer, but that would be true for straight women who don't bear children as well).

But heterosexuals can't (or don't want to) know how recognizing and honoring who you really are and who you truly love might be liberating and psychologically healthful. I know a lot of gay people who seem to be very happy. I definitely think a happy gay relationship is better than an unhappy hetero relationship. The focus should be on being with the right person for you-not being with who society dictates is the right person for you. That's a recipe for disaster, whether you're bowing to pressure in terms of religion, social class, race or gender.
And I'd be more worried about my child if they were straight and depressed than if they were gay and happy.

Do you really think people choose a "focus". What happened to make you change your focus? Anything?
*I'm sincerely interested because I can't remember ever choosing or focusing-it just was.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 03:49 pm
Has anyone positively identified any queer infants yet?
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 04:07 pm
Not of the human variety. The article I read said the genetic testing had been limited to sheep.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 04:43 pm
aidan wrote:
. . .Do you really think people choose a "focus". What happened to make you change your focus? Anything?
*I'm sincerely interested because I can't remember ever choosing or focusing-it just was.
Focus is a word I chose on the spur of the moment. I know I can come up with something better. For now let me say that one should not automatically assume that's one's transient thoughts, no matter how vivid or intense, necessarily define one's orientation.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 05:48 pm
Quote:
For now let me say that one should not automatically assume that's one's transient thoughts, no matter how vivid or intense, necessarily define one's orientation.

I agree. But transient is the key word-you using it reminded me of this poem I read which I think explains what it must be like to know that you truly are something whether you'd like to be or not:

What language do you use
when you want nothing more
than not to want what you want? Imagine a
candle inside your mind. You try to
blow it out,
rub it out, blot it, smother it, extinguish it
forever. But no matter what you do
it goes on burning steadily,
even purely
in its stubbornness. It casts shadows
that turn even the most common room mysterious.
It lets you see
where no sight seems possible.

(written by C. B. - a teen-ager who was talking about how to tell his father he was gay).

Most gay people who define themselves as gay- not bisexual or questioning or curious- have said this is what it's like. It's something that is the opposite of transient- it's something that they've always known or felt-even before they knew what to call it.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 06:28 pm
neologist wrote:
What I object to is the assertion that such urges are in themselves reason to abandon focus in heterosexuality.
This presumption of a "focus in heterosexuality" is amusing to say the least.
neologist wrote:
For now let me say that one should not automatically assume that's one's transient thoughts, no matter how vivid or intense, necessarily define one's orientation.
This presumption of an "orientation" is equally amusing.

Care to try and rationalize them (I don't mean self-satisfying but incorrect reasons)?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 06:47 pm
Chumly wrote:
neologist wrote:
What I object to is the assertion that such urges are in themselves reason to abandon focus in heterosexuality.
This presumption of a "focus in heterosexuality" is amusing to say the least.
neologist wrote:
For now let me say that one should not automatically assume that's one's transient thoughts, no matter how vivid or intense, necessarily define one's orientation.
This presumption of an "orientation" is equally amusing.

Care to try and rationalize them (I don't mean self-satisfying but incorrect reasons)?
The term 'sexual orientation' is not mine.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 11:37 pm
My 8-week-old son likes ABBA film clips...but I don't think that really is proof of anything.... Shocked
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 12:00 am
neologist wrote:
Chumly wrote:
neologist wrote:
What I object to is the assertion that such urges are in themselves reason to abandon focus in heterosexuality.
This presumption of a "focus in heterosexuality" is amusing to say the least.
neologist wrote:
For now let me say that one should not automatically assume that's one's transient thoughts, no matter how vivid or intense, necessarily define one's orientation.
This presumption of an "orientation" is equally amusing.

Care to try and rationalize them (I don't mean self-satisfying but incorrect reasons)?
The term 'sexual orientation' is not mine.
That's pleasant to know given the term "sexual orientation" is not used verbatim in your text as quoted by yours truly. Perhaps you'd like to chat about my dual slide compound miter saw I'm using to install custom trim in the new kitchen?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 09:24 am
Chumly wrote:
. . . Perhaps you'd like to chat about my dual slide compound miter saw I'm using to install custom trim in the new kitchen?


Dual slide?

Compound?

Miter?

OMG!
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 10:37 am
Hold on.

I have a fundamental question: "Why would hetrosexual people want to 'cure' homesexual people?"

I'm not sold on either school of thought of whether alternative sexual/gender identities are genetic or learned. I can see creedence in both. The argument that it's a disease is what I find offensive.

Let's entertain the idea that it is a choice. Why if someone finds someone that they love, should they not be with them, man or woman?

I think homosexuality is a mixture of both chomozonal elements and social elements.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Mar, 2007 04:44 pm
Eorl wrote:
My 8-week-old son likes ABBA film clips...but I don't think that really is proof of anything.... Shocked
He's gay, you're done for!
0 Replies
 
 

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