Stuck in the Gospels

Re: Stuck in the Gospels


Actually , all four Gospels conclude with the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, not His death.

Without the Resurrection, the Epistles are pointless as the Apostle Paul admits 'if Christ be not risen, our faith is in vain'.

Re: Stuck in the Gospels



Thanks for pointing that out RL yet how does the resurrection change things then is the question the Gospels are silent on.

So if theists spend their time solely in the Gospels will they be saved and come unto an understanding of the truth?

1Titus 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Comment
This is the point at the heart of what "enlightenment" really is.

So it is the Epistle logic that explains the the changes that the death (and resurrection) of Christ brought about.

Without studying the Epistles one may never know who they are in Christ Jesus.

They will never know the power of the spirit, how to operate it and the fruit thereof.

Thus the Gospels do not contain a complete knowledge of the "truth" yet this knowledge is available to know and we are "able2know" it from the Epistles.

So just receiving the seed of God but never knowing your father is like an evangelist fathering bastard children (excuse my vulgarity) across the countryside but never teaching them the source of truth and where/how to find it themselves.

Just knowing Jesus' life is not enough we need to know our standing and state with God.

Being born of spirit is not enough we need to grow and be nurtured by our heavenly father.

2Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Comment
Notice the word is throughly not thoroughly.

Thoroughly is a cleansing on the outside where throughly is a cleansing on the inside. (You can wash your hands thoroughly but you cannot wash your hands throughly.)

The word perfect is also translated "complete" in other places.

It is like the Gospels are the arm of God and the Epistles connect perfectly at the elbow and extend out to the hand and fingers which are us.

The word furnished is also the word perfect, so it can be expressed also as perfectly perfected or completely completely absolutely complete. Perfect, throughly perfected, through and through and through.

Some day we may appreciate the amount of truth contained in one single verse.

All of Scripture is profitable. The Gospels, the Acts, the Epistles, the Revelation of Jesus Christ (literally in Greek -- the Unveiling of Jesus Christ).

They all serve a purpose.

And what a grand purpose indeed.

I agree they all serve a purpose in the quest for faith and practice but some are directly addressed to us and some are only for our learning.

Before one takes to heart a single directive one must first ascertain to whom the particular verse, chapter or context etc is addressed.

There are many instances where the word of God is speaking directly to a particular group or selection of people then it abruptly changes and says something to the effect of, but to these people or concerning these people, then it gives other often conflicting directives. We must learn and discern which team we are on and what parts are addressed directly to us as a group or church. We learn which parts by reading and searching for the actual addresses when it says things like, but concerning the church or but to the Judeans or concerning the children of disobedience or to the lost sheep of the house of Israel the directives to the priests and the directives to the prophets were even vastly differing. This is where most of these seeming contradictions come from the lack of understanding to whom the particular words are addressed. They are not all addressed to us or should we be following the instructions Jesus addressed to Judas? Also the church taking the laws addressed to the Judaens and applying them to the church and likewise people taking to heart things addressed to those who have completely irreversibly forsaken God and mistakenly thinking they are addressed to them thus feeling the condemnation of something not intended to them.

A very important Biblical principal getting "to whom the word is addressed" correct.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Colossians 1:1-2
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Comment: To "the faithful in Christ Jesus"? That includes us. Thus to and for are prepositions that mean a great deal when discerning what is directly addressed to us and what is just for our learning. Then we do not just toss out at will whatever parts we do not like but we adhere to the directives specifically tailored for our age of grace to enhance our understanding of the true God in light of our spiritual standing and state in Christ Jesus.

Theists have classified the people of the Bible is numerous various terminology but the Bible itself has three classifications Jew, Gentile and Church of God.

1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Comment: The Bible only has these three to which it addresses it's text. The church of God did not exist until after the day of Pentecost so how would things have been addressed to them when the appearance of the church of God was a mystery held in the mind of God till it was revealed to the apostle Paul?

The church of God has not one solitary mention in the old testament. It talks of the time after our dispensation and the time before but not even a whisper is mentioned of the time after the crucifixion.

I will tell you there is a comma that was added by translators and that comma could represent our time of grace.

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4:19
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Comment:
Jesus opens the scrolls and reads from Isaiah. He only reads the first half of the verse and closes the scroll. Why does he stop halfway through the verse? Had he read the last part of the verse the day of vengeance would have come after the first year and the dispensation of grace could never have risen and prevailed over the captivity of the law.

So our grace dispensation is literally the comma in the verse added by translators. This is the closest the old testament ever comes to revealing the grace dispensation/administration which was hidden in the mind of God alone and revealed through revelation to Paul the Apostle after the fulfillment, ascension of Christ, Pentecost...

1Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Rex interesting topic.....

I've been to churches and heard of preachers and priests that preach nothing but the gospels. While essential to our faith, the gospels do not tell the whole story that God has given us. In my opinion, the gospels should be taught first; 1. for salvation and 2. for a better understanding on Christ's life and basic doctorines essential to christianity....but the gospel doesnt complete the story....as christians, we should then go to the epistles to learn about discipleship and spiritual growth.........also one cant discount the ot , which is necessary ( in my opinion) to understand the reasons why Christ was sent to die for us.... My point is this, God gave us his words from Genesis to Revelation and all are important.

Wow Kate, excellent testimony and synopsis. Thanks

What inspired me to write this thread is men like E.W Bullinger, James Strong and Robert Young that spent much of their life as avid Gospel theists and it shows in their conclusions that they more often lacked the basic most simplistic logic of the Epistles. As vast an understanding they had of the Gospels their faith lacked the coherence of the exceeding often seemingly contradicting revelation of the epistle Christian. And it also seems evident that these men and their conclusions were absorbed and digested by a whole generation of people who in turn likewise lacked the common simplicity of the Epistle doctrine.

So we now live in a generation of error built upon error all because of a lack of understanding that the Gospels were addressed to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and fulfill the old testament where the Epistles are addressed to the church and reveal the new testament.

The directives given by Jesus to the Judeans of his time are seemingly contrary to the directives that are given by revelation of God to the Apostle Paul. So one can only surmise that the death and resurrection of Christ changed the way God's creation relates to him.

This change is observed in comparison like directives where Jesus instructed the Judeans to pray that God give them their daily bread where in the Epistle logic God has already supplied all of our need in Christ Jesus and we need only to claim them with a thankful heart.

Where the Gospel logic is to forgive others as we are forgiven on the condition that others are forgive then we are where the Epistle logic says that if we go to God with a heart of forgiveness then God is faithful and will forgive us (forgiveness is not dependent on others but God alone) and he will forget our sins completely providing we forget them too. If God forgets our transgressions then why were we wasting time remembering them? (Alcoholics anonymous is a prime example of people stuck in the Gospels their Gospel doctrine of forgiving only drives people back to repent twice over what God has already forgiven according to our dispensation we are living in today.)

So the Gospels actually are a different dispensation. Where with the lord Jesus Christ was actually present on the earth he was able to effect the world in a superficial way but with the Epistles where the holy of holies does not walk among the people but resides within each and every believer (Christ in you = Christian).

So our spirit is not upon us as with the Gospels people but it is within us as our spiritual identity.

So the Gospels (without a scope of the Epistles) can actually mislead a Christian into accepting less than what God has to offer.

Rex

First off, Good topic!!!!!!!!

ok in my opinion there are three types of christians...(i use the term christian here loosely) meaning those that call themselves christians, but may not be in the truest sense of the word.....
1. The lawkeeper christian: follows the ot and the gospels. They believe we are still under the law and ignore any of the texts given by paul.

2. The liberal christian: rejects the ot as being only for the jews and rejects any of the epistles as being "merely opinion". These types will pick and choose from the gospel what they want to believe. Emphasizing on Love and forgiveness and shying away from sin and hell etc...

3. The conservative Christian: believes genesis to revelation is pertanent to christian life.

Ok in saying all of that, i will have to say i fall under category three. I believe the whole bible is Gods word to us. But i also know that there are two covenants. 1. Law 2. Grace...the jews of the ot and even during the gospels were under the law bc Christ had not yet gone to the cross. So when Christ preached the law, he was doing it bc everyone was still under the old covenant. But when Christ shed his blood and rose from the grave, a new covenant was ushered in. One which Christians are under. While we are not under the law and do not have to adhere to the 613 rules, we cant discount all Christ taught and preached while on earth. Very rarely did he preach anything pertaining to the law. Most of what he preached to the jews also applies to christians. I dont believe that Christ preached contrary to what paul preached. Remember paul attributed all his words to Christ. I just think Pauls words, given by God, completed what Christ was teaching.

Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mark 12:10
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Luke 20:17
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Comment: What/who is "the stone" that the builders rejected? What does this stone represent?

Is this stone part of a bulwark? What does this bulwark or wall/temple represent?

So the temple is torn down and the builders reject the stone which God choses to fit all subsequent stones upon.

This to me represents two religions one true religion and one false one.

One built upon liberty/love and the other built upon law.

The builders chose law and God chose liberty. So all other stones which build the temple of God must also be comprised of the principles of liberty.

Ephesians 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Kissing babies, John the Baptist and Jesus as infants painted in the court of Leonardo Da Vinci or possibly by his hand himself, (to me) representing the Old Testament law growing from old patriarchs to a young common baptists John and liberty growing from it's youth in Jesus Christ to it's age we now occupy.



Her eyes divine an unbending law while her mouth reveals the liberty within.

This is my take on Leonardo's "code"...

You heard it here

RexRed

I have sat pondering the last couple weeks over this thread. It is not that my mind has drawn a blank but it is that my mind has become a bit overwhelmed.

Whenever I become overwhelmed by a biblical quandary I tell myself it is simpler than i am making it. The thing that I speculate upon seems to span across several of my threads.

I seem to just have become overwhelmed by biblical thought.

Much of this thought I am solid on and some I have drawn generalized conclusions.

I don't feel like I really have anyone to reason these things out with here because I have observed things that have brought me to different basic fundamental conclusions. These conclusions take decades to relearn and rethink old notions that die hard. Then there is the consideration that I would not only like to relish in these truths I have found but I would like to expand and blaze new trails of understanding using these fundamental principles of biblical light.

Yet since most theists are on a different page they cannot even reason the same considerations because they come as too abstract and foreign for them to do anything constructive with.

The truth is abstract and the norm is a lie.

So this relates back to what I have called error built upon error.

Where I have truth and I would like to practically build upon that truth so that I can show this truth as a life long accomplishment.

I know what this truth means because I remember when I was enlightened and I lived a long time without this understanding. Long enough where new truth radicalized my old perspective on life where I was not so desensitized to notice or care.

Truth must be sought without hypocrisy.

So this truth evolves around three things

body soul and spirit

This is what I refer as simplicity. That these three things are only simple when spoken together but when broken down they embody the whole of creation.

It is an oblivious failure to not recognize these three as the foundation of all creation before any other consideration is prefaced. Once you separate these terms the architecture of creation falls and all of life becomes untraceable.

Precious little can be understood about God without first an understanding of body soul and spirit. (We learn by repetition)

This is why they are defined in the first book of the Bible

God formed the body from the dust of the ground
God made man an living soul
God created man in his own image (which is Spirit)

The conception of life cannot be understood without an understanding of what the soul is. This is why both creationists and science both are endlessly at loggerheads concerning the abortion issue. Because neither of them have a "true" biblical definition of life they have made their own definition based on their own opinion and feelings and have not looked at the Bible to really find out where and when God considers life to begin and end in the process of reproduction and death.

The Bible "does" answer these questions definitively but neither theist or scientist can perceive the reality because they have created their own base of objectivity.

The Bible says life begins in physical birth at an infant's first breath and it ends at their last breath. So Christians and scientists both can argue with God on that one. Yet I am sure this comes as a surprise to you and will also come as a surprise to them too. If they would stop arguing for once and just ask God when life begins they may finally for once know God's alternative opinion from their own private politics.

Life begins at the first breath through the nostrils and lungs "Biblically"... now you know. It does not matter what self proclaimed Christians say or what scientists say but what matters is what does the word of God say...

90/% of most Christians, Muslims and Jews do not even know the difference between the soul and the spirit. They think they are the same thing! They use the words interchangeably and synonymously as if their meaning is completely unknown.

It is unknown only to them because they did not look in the Bible and find the difference between these words.

The soul is the life that enters the egg from the sperm and it becomes a "living" soul (as opposed to a dead soul) when the child takes their first breath. Soul life is passed on from the father to his siblings.

So both Christians and science alike have no idea when life actually becomes living they just talk out of their own ignorance completely oblivious to the differing opinion of "God".... What does God know anyway? (sarcasm)

It is God who knows and it is God and his word who far surpasses both science and theism in wisdom of life creation and the nature of the earth.

So if the soul is passed to the egg at fertilization through the sperm and becomes living with the first breath what is the "spirit" then?

The spirit is an image of God that is born into a person at some time once their reasoning and believing mental facilities are developed.

Spirit is a higher force than soul life. Although these words are interchanged in the Bible the meaning is contextually always the same. Animals even have soul (breath life) but we do not have pro life people going vegan. Yet it is the very same soul life that God first breathed into Adam and Eve that he breathed into plants and animals too. Plants and animals procreate due to this soul life force in automation.

This soul life force was on the earth in use long before man occupied the planet.

God did not create the human body he "formed" it. From the dust of the ground he formed it. That is evolution. When are people going to learn how to read rather than read into?

God "made" man a living soul he did not create man a living soul. Had he created man a living soul then this soul life would have been something that had never been before but God made man a living soul which indicates that God used materials for our breath life that he had already created prior to Eden.

So it is the basic misunderstanding of soul and spirit that lies at the heart of a constant bantering back and forth that echoes in halls of college debate teams across the world and is the topics of forum debate on the net and the answer is is that soul and spirit are different things. They are different substance and their whole debate is moot because they fail to recognize this simple basic fundamental truth. Thus all consecutive and further subsequent logic is built upon grievous error.

With this error then most basic concepts and doctrine of Christianity cannot be understood.

Without knowing the difference between soul and spirit one cannot understand the divinity of Christ in that he was only a man. Yet it was this breath life part that was also different let alone the spiritual ramifications and how that relates to his changing body aspect.

One cannot understand themselves and their living and spiritual essence.

One cannot understand the nature of God as Spirit and the incorruptibility of the Holy Spirit.

With soul confused as spirit one cannot understand how we at the return of Christ the mortal puts on immortality and the dead in Christ in the grave who are corruption they will put on incorruption.

There is the marriage of the bride and the bridegroom. Understanding of the body of Christ and how it was quickened by a life force that could only be taken briefly (three days and three nights) while his spirit was alive freeing our souls from captivity.

This is all only understood by the constant comparison of logic to the precept of body soul and spirit.

I have had years to compare this precept. I still have that gray matter where I cannot fully trek these threads of truth (body soul and spirit) through the old testament to the new and wind up in heaven without at various points confusing them and losing their great and majestic wisdom that they impart.

Even the holy spirit itself is a complete enigma without differentiating the force of life with the image of God created in us in Christ Jesus.

Wars have been senselessly fought over God all out of ignorance of these three words, body soul and spirit. All factions believing they were the "chosen people of God" or a superior race based on genetic "body" or blood lines. When it is the spirit that pleases God only. Oh the folly of men. When they do not even remotely comprehend the substance of God.

It is these three that travel through every page of the Bible and it is these three that liberate the soul and obtain the spirit of God. Yet the pages are silent when they are read and not understood in light of these three.

We cannot understand what pleases God. Do we please God in the flesh or in the spirit. It is the spirit that frees the soul.

So we trace back to the very beginning of time when God was the only body soul and spirit. God moved upon the waters and God created that which he is in us.

Both omnipotent and personal, spiritual and physical. The full gamut of all that is true, pure and innocent of evil.

So then into this mix of body soul and spirit comes humanity and humanity finds itself ignorant of their position and place in this creation. So God follows along in grace and relates to his creation in various ways due to the inability of the human nature and free will to comprehend these three, body soul and spirit.

So we go back to the beginning where were body soul and spirit were created. From then on they have been manipulated into worldly power and fortune.

Does God have a body? Of course he does but his body is in a realm that we cannot perceive. Even a verb has a body, the words the express the verb...

It is a hyper physical realm. For instance God is a father... Well you need a body to be a father but the word father is only a descriptive term to help visualize the nature of how God hyper physically creates spiritual offspring.

This body of God is imageless because it is hyper physical.

1Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit [hyper physical].

Comment:
So you can see how three words can over a lifetime become series of a network of ideas. The fact that the world is so oblivious to their meaning is convincing validation of their truth.

Those who use soul and spirit interchangeably only shows their complete lack of coherence regarding the most foundation of all Biblical principles and this ignorance is nearly across the board in all faiths and even those not religious have no formative conception of these terms.

Body soul and spirit, that is the nature of what we are...

1Th 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow[body], and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Comment:

The word of God divides and defines the meaning of spirit, soul and body.
One may ask one's self, do they know the difference between soul and spirit? If they do not then they are not even at step one when it comes to knowing their place in creation.

Once they reach step one, the second step is a step they have never even conceived of yet because it is a complete abstraction to the reality they have created aside from the true reality of God.

Peace with God

An understandably lucrative point of view.

I went into the background of body soul and spirit in this thread because I feel I will not be understood if I try and make some generalized biblical observations in regard to the new and old testament doctrines.

As I said in my previous post the deeper matters of life cannot be understood without first an very firm understanding of body soul and spirit. I can only surmise that the reason why others have not commented is because the idea of body soul and spirit is so radical to reality that you are even more overwhelmed by "Biblical thought" as I have gotten at times.

I will try to help you to make some sense of these ramifications.

The truth is more provincial than error. Error grinds to a halt and becomes chaos but the truth leads along a way to it's manifest destiny.

Body soul and spirit is the mantra that gleans through the lens of all that is and divides the realms of all that God has created.

Now I am going to try and tell a long story.

I will start at the beginning and if I miss anything please correct me.

What I am about to say may not agree with your idea of how reason came about but it is the way I have come to understand it on my own.

If you see some fatal flaw in my reasoning in the statements and reasons of my hypothesis and conclusions please speak up. The purpose of this thread is to arrive at a single truth for the masses to know and live by. When there is one truth then there is one unity and one liberty. Yet I would also like to learn from you any things you can add to what I have presented.

We start our journey at the very first verse of Genesis.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This heaven and earth is a place that most people have never conceived of. They think of this heaven and earth as crude and empty. But this is not the case.

The first heaven and earth was a place that words can not describe. It was a heaven and a paradise on earth in perfect balance. God would not create a heaven and earth empty dark and void. It "became" that way.

The heavens were alive and the stars were like words that spoke and guided the inhabitants of the earth where all consciousness was at one with God.

So God created all that there was both in heaven and in earth. So on earth there was life and living creatures and in heaven there was spirit.

This heavenly spirit was ruled by and angel named Lucifer. He ruled the heavens and was God's ruling angel in heaven. Lucifer was the angel of light thus words and language, communication with God all were part of Lucifer's kingdom.

Now things are simple when they work right but when they break down they provide all kinds of conflict. This is what happened, the walls of communication between body soul and spirit or heaven and earth became obscured until the light of God no longer shone upon the earth. After the ice age the stars reappeared.

All of this is contained in those first two verses. A perfect world that falls into darkness and chaos due to treachery in high places.

So what was once simple of body soul and spirit became confused and the earth became, crudely spiritual and darkness was on the face of the deep. This was because between verse one and verse two Lucifer turned out his light. So the light that God created in heaven and earth in the first verse was turned out by the end of the second verse.

An entire age passes by in the space of the first two sentences of Genesis.

So that when God says, let there be light, the Bible does not say, and God created light, God just has to speak light back into being. Because he created it in the first heaven and earth of verse one.

Likewise when God forms man from the dust of the ground the Bible does not say and God created man from the dust of the ground. Why? Because God already created the dust of the ground in the first verse of Genesis 1:1. (In the beginning God created the heavens and the "earth")

So God just used materials that he had already created to form man and woman beside him. This is why God only formed man rather than "creating" the body of man. He had already created the materials he needed to form man from the first heaven and earth. Eden began the second heaven and earth. Eden was only a revamping of the heavens and the earth.

So how does body soul and spirit change from the first heaven and earth to the second heaven and earth? (see what I mean about tracing them each through the old testament?)

Well in the first heaven and earth spirit was only in heaven... And life and the body that contained life (prehistoric life) was without spirit. They may have even had a different kind of life force too.

So God forms the body then he "makes" the soul (life force).

formed made created, body souls spirit

So the soul is made. So the body is the same from pre history it just becomes more complex but the breath life that is in the body may have been different in prehistory.

Paleontology can look at the bones but they cannot look at the breath life that is long gone from prehistoric "life" on earth. Even the atmosphere was radically different in prehistory. So the Bible is saying that God also breaths this same breath life that we depend upon for survival. Life the elusive force that still perplexes science that all living creatures share this breath life force and this is what defines the soul. Yet this soul was made for us specifically. It did not just occur on it's own it has the divine signature of God.

For to form something is below making something and making something is below creating something.

So then how much more is the spirit that God created conditionally in Adam and Eve compared to the life he made in them?

So far we have traced the body soul and spirit from Lucifer where spirit was only heavenly yet close to earth in a perfect paradise.

Yet the fall of Lucifer dethroned him and placed him at the lowest level of the evolutionary chain.

It was this dethroning that availed Adam to take this spiritual throne and go with it. God created man in his own image because the image of God is spirit. Thus the vacuum of power propelled man into the spiritual celestial kingdom. There was none higher in heaven than Adam. For Adam completely opened the connection between God and the earth.

Thus Adam named the stars (through God's revelation)...

He named the creatures of the earth and above all with God as his sole guide and mentor.

So we see the holy spirit acting as interpretor for the cosmos.

Well we know the story from there, Adam fell equally as far as the devil. So that he became as low as the serpent and the gulf of evil was opened up and the body soul and spirit were thrown into an uncertain times.

So the devil is then on the earth and uses his knowledge of light to impersonate the most high God. Blindness rules.

So this is where tracing the path of the holy spirit becomes as rocky as the holy mountains they were said to occupy.

Once Adam and Eve lost their connection to God they had to rely on their memory to have spirit upon them.

So when humans faltered and obscured their spiritual abilities God would meet them wherever he could and lift them to higher ground.
So all Adam and Eve had was their memory of the things that God taught them. Adam and Eve were very peculiar in a world of other types of humans. They had memory of the spirit and they had talked and walked with God. No other creature on the earth had done that before.

So Adam and Eve started a tribe of people who enjoyed hearing about God and their recollection therof. For this hearing and teaching of God their remembrance of the way of God was very good and they lived good lives because of it. Others began to emulate their lifestyle. Until many tribes upon the face of the earth lived by the same code. This code taught the recollections of Edam and Eve to their progeny and for this God blessed them. This blessing came in the form of spiritual abundance. They knew the heavens had fallen into disarray yet the sagas protected them through the hope of a messiah.

These are the same people who build stone henge and such. They were people of shaman and mighty hunters. They were not agriculturists but they were migrant travelers. They were highly skilled in husbandry and their knowledge of navigation and astronomy is what led to the agricultural boon of years to come.

It was these travelers and their sagas that led to the time of Egypt and Moses.

These travelers of ancient Europe were not pagans although history paints them that way. They were monotheists who believed in an apostasy in heaven. Their monotheism rubbed off on the Egyptian kings because it came from a time much older long before paganism, long before other languages when there was only one pure language from God.

One third of the stars in heaven from the vantage point of the earth are "missing". This was a thing that baffled the ancient travelers and they were certain the reason that they were missing was because of an apostasy in heaven where a dual between light and darkness was fought and these evil stars have fallen to the earth.

(could this get and more convoluted?)

Well I think so...

This is evident when looking at the sky from the mind of an ancient astronomer. This idea of astronomy and apostasy I speak of is older than civilization itself. This apostasy is how the ancients reconciled the duality they saw in the heavens. This duality in the sky was most certainly known of long before metals were fashioned into plows.

(still tracing the spirit.)

So this spirit was taught and remembered by using the stars to teach of the wisdom of Adam.

Now here is where the story gets even more fractured.

Genesis also foretells of the messiah who will come as some later date in time and repair the schism between God and man.

So part of the allure of this early tribal cult was that any shaman could theoretically be the messiah come to save the world.

So holiness became subjected to rigorous ritual and ceremony. Such as the building or celestial calendars of wood and stone and the roots of astrology in it's infancy. That the stars became the guide for life rather than the human spirit. The celestial spirits guided them from migration to migration and their math and geometry became learned through sagas. This was a simple time where the gross atrocities of sin had not really occurred to the mind of mankind.

Yet as the mass of people grew so did the division. The people divided themselves into celestial factions. All vying for a messiah that would rise out of their tribe and justify the captivity of their fathers. Suddenly everyone was a messiah. All you has to do was set out your shingle and you were a holy man.

So this is the time Moses was born into. A time where all the world wanted was a man to redeem them. It was almost sickening. Every pagan religion and also including the Hebrews was touting a messiah. There were messiahs by the dozen. Moses did not believe the world deserved a messiah. He doubted the rock.

This very truth is a crossroad of spiritual connections.

During the time of shaman travelers the Bible says "God winked"...

What exactly does that mean? Well it means that they obeyed the statues set down by Adam to the degree that it was for the most part no problem... That was until the statutes of Adam became changed and lost and watered down.

There were so many tribes and each tribe held only a piece of the whole picture and many of the tribes had corrupted their message.

So their guide to spiritual blessing became obscured by ignorance and wrong teaching.

This seems to me to be the time when humans were at their darkest ebb.

Then Moses went up into the mountains and comes down with the laws.

How ever the laws came they changed the messiah cults. Suddenly blessing was not on how much you could remember the code of Adam but they became how well you could recite the laws of Moses.

So the spirit became shifted from an ancient way of living with nature and the earth to a set of laws. The word was translated from the stars to written language.

So again God shifts but this is where the turnstile comes in again.

How did they receive the spirit?

We know they had souls or they would have been dead... For the Bible defines the soul as breath life... Without breath this is no life.

So of course they were alive but did they have spirit and what were the conditions that God permitted them to receive it? Remember we are following the spirit through HIStory.

This is where the turnstile/crossroads or whatever way you visualize it, the spirit take on a multitude of carriage systems.

We see God creating Lucifer and other angels with it

We see Adam and Eve having it created upon them in the form of God's "image" (which is spirit)

We see Adam and Eve transferring it to their children through sagas

We see these sagas becoming lost and then replaced by laws

We see this reoccurring mention of a messiah and justification through faith in this messiah

It is noteworthy to mention here that the story of Noah is also a turnstile of spiritual concern.

Most people do not understand the rainbow thing and the promise of Noah.
The thing the rainbow signified was that God would never let it flood the earth this is what people believe.... This is not the real significance of the event.

Unlike Moses, Noah did not deny "the rock". Noah promised God that in thanks for saving him and his family he would teach his children of the "coming" messiah. But it was not that he would just teach them of the coming messiah but that he would warn them of the travesty of portraying one's self as this messiah and not simply living a life believing upon this messiahs coming. To live the life of humility rather than obstinate.

So certain of Noah's sons set out exactly to do that, to exalt themselves up as the very first messiahs and that was the birth of cities.

So people worshiped messiahs as gods and the true God was again cast aside for idols.

Thus the spirit that Noah set up for those who followed in that way was obstructed by the worship of messiahs. The language of Noah was obliterated and the world became detached from the promise.

So the spirit became lost in the crowd. There were so many ways most leading down.

There was the stars, the sagas, the faith in the messiah, the law, and then also spirit was conferred from priest to priest and the prophets has their own way to God.

Yet it was in all of this that the common person seemed to always lose out.

A kind gesture and simple hospitality could not buy a sinner's way into heaven.

Then the prophets refined exactly what a messiah should be and do when he arrived. The kings priests and lawgivers all conferred and they all waited...

There were years of silence were the human soul yearned for release. Where the darkness became a blight upon all the land and no army or power upon the earth could bring back the spirit of God. Where the blood of all the life on earth could no longer atone for the sins of humanity.

Where the spirit was only a whisper calling out upon the winds of the wilderness of ages.

The priests could not hold the spirit, the law became a farce, the holy of holies was lost, and the temple a forgotten dream. The bloodline were scantly thin and the stories of the stars and the meanings of their symbols forgotten. The mighty men had all fallen to their knees and the holy spirit was untraceable.

Prayer was imperfect and poisoned by human folly.

Of all encounters with the holy spirit in the old testament the only records of the holy spirit from Adam to the day of Pentecost shows the holy spirit coming "upon" people. Where after the day of Pentecost the holy spirit is "within" people.

This signifies that these vehicles of the old testament i.e. stars and sagas law and prophets priests were only vehicles for this holy spirit to the common person. Yet the holy spirit seemed out of reach to the common person. It was always relayed by an intermediary between God and them.

This is where some other considerations come in.

The new testament says a strange thing.

It says that John the baptist was born from the womb with holy spirit.

This is absolutely radical to all previous biblical thought concerning the holy spirit.

Even the Lord Jesus Christ the Bible does not claim he was born from the womb with holy spirit.

No one in the entire Bible is ever mentioned as being born with the holy spirit from the womb.

So this event signifies an act of God where he seemingly oversteps the laws of the progression of nature to insert spirit into a child in the womb without their consent first. (for every law that God oversteps this could theoretically enable the devil to do the same.)

Yet this child who becomes a selfless vagabond of the desert who passes this spirit off to others with the waters of the river of hope.

Suddenly we again see a change...

And although John has the spirit upon him also he can transfer this spirit upon others as they believe upon the hope of the coming messiah.

The water becomes the catalyst for the hope of the messiah. This hope of the messiah is the oldest "way" to God.

Orion (Christ) who will conquer the void of the heavens and restore the kingdom of light.

So this spirit has an awakening. This spirit is not granted due to the works of the law but it is poured upon a person and they are endued with spiritual healing waters.

And this spirit that was long lost became found on the banks of the river through this prophet born from the womb with the spirit upon him.

It was through this prophet that Jesus received the spirit upon him.

That John was a carrier for the spirit to Jesus, a humble carpenters son.

Yet then we have God seemingly meddling again with life. Seemingly breaking his laws of nature and creating a sperm with life in it in Mary's egg. So here God is working on the soul (breath life) level as he is also working on the spiritual level. It was Mary's egg that provided the body part. God only had to add "new" life to the egg and the egg was "formed" in the womb of Mary.

See how body soul and spirit make the conception of Jesus Christ understandable?

All along the spirit has been on earth shaping the souls and bodies of the people it has been placed upon.

Here is where (i really wish I knew more about this stuff) but the wars in heaven and the powers that be the evil forces the armies of the adversary they war with the soul. They make bets upon your failure and only God knows the choices in the end that you will make. God knew your choices before he created the heavens and the earth.

But prices had to be paid in spite of God's attempts to give us a better way out of our own mess. You can not alter nature and not pay a price. Yet his son Jesus Christ willingly paid the price. Where he placed the importance of the spirit over the importance of his body. This also echoes the same sentiment of John the baptist. These were men of the spirit not of the flesh. Though John's ministry was an outward donning of spirit the work of Christ was in inward seed of spiritual accomplishment.

So in the same generation of John and Jesus we see the spirit going from it's carrier of water and changing to a carrier of fire.

One has only to marvel at the means in which God has gone out of his way to bring his spirit to all walks of life at various times for various purposes.

So that when we look back we see many generations of peoples who sought this spirit and travailed a lifetime for only a mere glimpse of this holy spirit. Even today the way of holiness eludes many more than generality.

So as you can see the price paid for this holy spirit has been paid over and over in the tears of the masses who lived and died and never even were able to dream of this holy spirit created living and real within the very fiber of their being.

So the road to the way of holiness has been paved in blood sweat and tears.

So we see a way of holiness through the body

A way of holiness thought the soul and a way of holiness through the spirit. For the ancients believed that life thought passed by the male to the offspring also resided in the blood. That the essence of the soul which was life resided in the blood. This led to the idea that the blood of lambs and goats could atone for the sins in the blood of mankind.

So we have three threads body soul and spirit. The body of royal lineage and the blood containing a life that was not from Adam. And the spirit anointed from a messianic prophet who had spirit born from birth. The flesh and blood signifying the price of the soul and body of Christ and the bread and the wine of communion. This all dating back to a priest Melchisedec who had no known earthly father or mother whom Abraham paid tithes to. All for a connection to God an order of the stars and a fellowship of light. For an alter into the ancients rite of the spirit in the calendar of the new celestial age.

For this all begins with a garden where the seeds of the spirit sprout and grow. An age of grace and unity where God has long awaited the day when we all sing with one voice in unity to the spirit of his desires.

This spirit that has lived upon mountain tops and once resided in the holies of holies and was born into John the baptist and then was upon Christ is now in us. It is the very same spirit it is just delivered in a different way. For the spirit has had many carriers as it has meandered it's way back into the imagery of the human psyche. For it is the same true God that energizes the holy spirit. For the holy spirit is simply spiritual energy passed on from God through us to others. This energy is seated in a heavenly kingdom ruled now by the triumphant Lord of the heavens Christ Jesus.

Thus it behooves us to not seek the holy spirit in mountains or clouds or prophets or law books or coming messiahs or war baptism the blood of lambs sagas or celestial signs but we receive the holy spirit directly from God. This holy spirit is a gift that requires nothing but a belief that it exists and the process of believing you have received it. It requires no action to receive it and a person has no more Christian character after they receive it than before they had it. But, they now have a means in which to change their physical outlook. They have received a new nature and by the renewing of the mind and a putting on of this new nature there becomes a transformation.

This all made possible but the three threads body soul and spirit.

That through these very constructs the spirit moved from a state where man was in total darkness where it was only on mountaintops and possessed by a certain few then it worked it's way down until it then instead of being only upon the soul and body it became born "within" the very person of a being, unconditionally.

This is the year zero this is what marked the end of days and the beginning of days. Why that two thousand years ago that the world thought it such an occasion to start counting time all over again.

So that the world would never forget the advent of the holy spirit when the spirit cam down from it's mountaintops and rested in the hearts of those who simply believe in the faith of Jesus Christ.

That is was no longer only for kings and for the aristocracy or for the scribes and men of law but that the truth can flourish in the least of all saints and that God is no respecter of persons. God respects the spirit of a person and does not judge us by our deeds but by the deeds his son paid for our liberty.

So the new age brings new freedom, new life and a new way to God where we can converse with God and the words are living spirit unobstructed by the cloud of self doubt.

Where once there were generations and each seeking the spirit in their times of unrest and turmoil we are now one generation of brothers and sisters.

We are no longer many generations of the body but a single generation and family of the spirit. We are not tribes all holding a part of the divine word but we all represent a complete and living guide to the stars.

We are replacing the stars that are missing as virtually heaven on earth. We are fulfilling the will of God and rejoining in the fellowship of the heavenly triumvirate of power that fell in the beginning recorded in the very first verses of Genesis.

So if I could summarize...

First we must remember body soul and spirit again,

It seems that from Genesis to revelation that the subject of the Bible is the messiah. He is the subject of every book in the Bible and he is referred to by theists as the red thread for this reason. So when one considers the law as a primary way to holiness they are going to come up short. The Bible refers to the law as the school master but a school master who stays after the learning years are over becomes more of a shackle than a help.

A guide is only used to train one until one can do the feat on their own. Also the guide was present in the absence of the spirit itself. So once the spirit arrives the guide is no longer necessary.

Contrarily to forsake the guide for the law then is to lessen the spirit into a conform that restricts it's own dominion. So it is not longer the spirit but a crude device that is only an illusion of the real thing. Like comparing a living creature with a rock. The law was only supposed to echo the sentiment of the spirit but it in no way could embody God, God embodies the spirit.

So it is not God who has changed but it has been humans who have changed in their awakening toward the spirit. They have unlocked the key which opened the door to God's fountain of living waters. They have let the tide of God's passion temper their constitution and they have the ministry of his word that is the light of the world.

The age of the common spirit is here freely given to all who seek it's inheritance.

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Comment:
I know I am just rambling but hell, I thought you might learn something by me just thinking out loud. I feel like this writing is a bit all over the place but I am going to post it anyway. I am interested in any and all criticisms.

Had I added scripture references it would have been much longer sorry to the scripture fans. If you would like me to reference any things I have said with scripture then please ask and I will see what I can come up with.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Comment:
Just something I found today that I thought was interesting.

Ok, after some careful consideration I have come to some conclusions.

I really did want to post this reply in the politics forum because it is inspired partly by my hatred for the idiocy of the out in the world liberal mentality but it is also motivated by my search for the truth.

Liberty is only godly inspired liberty when it is the true spirit of God that is behind the liberal intent.

So we apply laws over liberty to measure how far the spirit has taken the soul from the constructs of the law. Yet the law is not at the heart of the directive for the soul but the spirit is behind the directive and the law only a crude guide with no exceptions for God's grace, mercy and peace.

But when liberty is no longer being guided by the spirit of God and it is guided by the spirit of the world then we suddenly see liberty under a different guise.

So can liberty be amalgamated with wild abandon? YES! in it's most rudimentary form liberty is total chaos. We have people feeling sorry for the enemy and leaving us vulnerable to their own half baked frivolous freedoms. The ACLU protecting pedophiles and such are glaring examples. And the democrats leaving us vulnerable to a major attack

God never told us to be fools with our security. God tells us there is evil in this world and we need to reveal the stratagems of this enemy. It is the exposure of the enemy's plan that expels it from the cancer filled organisms of the world.

Light conquers darkness but light can be bent when fear leads light into it's self imposed abyss. Light suddenly becomes half truth, a subtle counterfeit for the truth.

So what seems like liberty is actually wild abandon. Liberty is liberty yet liberty can become travesty as easily as it becomes truth. There is a LAW of liberty yet liberty alone does not suffice when it comes to God's reckoning. If that was the case we would never have even needed God to be justified of anything including murder.

Why? Because liberty alone is not sufficient. Liberty needs a rule in order for justice to be served. Liberty needs to be justified.

As I have discussed previously how the spiritual guide took on many forms. Sagas of travelers, burning bushes, mountains, scrolls containing laws and a messiah living and present on this earth during the gospels. Yet all of these are simply an attempt to marry liberty with law. To attach an external rule upon liberty like a set of training wheels. This is to imply that there are two things involved here. The external guide and the internal spirit. Why do we need the external guide if there is the presence of the internal spirit?

Because of the mind. The mind is separate from the spirit. The mind can be taught error where the spirit is perfect and cannot be corrupted as the mind can. The mind's own brilliance can obscure that of the spirit. The mind can become corrupted by the law to such a degree that condemnation rules the psyche. Our true identity is the created spirit within and not the sum and total of the mind's experiences. Yet it is the mind that fools us into thinking it is the only critic of our obsessions. The mind and it's rationalization convinces us to believe that it's experiences and outlook are the sum and total of what we are.

The is where the human flaw in our psyche is observed. The mind's experiences are contrary to who we really are. So the mind cannot be an accurate guide to the soul. We are told to look "within" by the majority of the world when the answers are not within the mind but they are outside of the mind's peripheral vision. This is why the liberty of the mind is pure chaos and illusion where the liberty of the spirit is truth.

The liberty of the mind is self serving where the liberty of the spirit serves God. So liberty without an understanding of the spirit may actually still be liberty but it can be tested by applying a rule to the overall process.

In the gospels we see the spirit lighting down from heaven in the form of a dove and resting upon the life and body of Jesus Christ. Then we see Jesus being judged by the law given the fate of an ardent sinner.

So the law judged the spirit as sinful. The very guide used to lead the people in the way of the spirit inadvertently judged the holy spirit itself as sinful. This only demonstrated the total blindness of the law. The spirit was the purpose of the law...

Jesus being of the spirit a time before the law a priest of the order of Melchisidec. Jesus walked in a different way than the judges of his day.

Jesus having the spirit within him did not need the laws to please God. It was the spirit itself that pleased God and not the deeds of the flesh.

It is true liberty that pleases God not the letter of the law.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ec 7:26
And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.

Comment:
This woman is symbolically liberty... those who live liberty with a view in the mind toward pleasing God will find true liberty but those who are in it to please themselves will be taken in by the evil in this world.

Yet the modern liberal is usually an agnostic or atheist. So who has been "taken in"? Their aim is liberty to please the self and their denial of God is the test to determine if their liberty is of the mind or of the spirit.

On the other hand we have conservatives using the law to produce liberty... They have forsaken the spirit for the very same law that tried to kill the spirit. (Usually a law they are guilty of breaking themselves.) They desire to impose this law on others still today... even if the spirit is giving a contrary directive they are oblivious to the fact that it was this same law that judged the messiah of God...

Ro 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Comment:
In the epistles we are not instructed to confess our sins to "others" (as with the gospels) but we are to confess our sin to God...

True liberty lies in perspective. Knowing no earthly power can convict us that out of love for God we live to please God by walking with this spirit in liberty and truth. For even liberty has it's bounds where it no longer pleases God when we go beyond the spirit's directives and intent.

When we miss the purpose of liberty or liberty begins to resemble law then God is no longer pleased. It is the actual walk with God that pleases God and not the deeds of the law. Remember it was this very law that was used to justify the killing of an innocent man.

So what is true liberty? True liberty is walking by the spirit and not by the old habits of the mind. Not by the selfishness of our actions but by the selflessness of them. It is abhorring those who live by enforcing law on others and abhorring those who live by unbridled liberty.

So that justification is not of the self but rightly attributed to the wonderful works of God.

Peace with God

It would seem that the whole basis of this thread was that those who planned to read the Bible from cover to cover seem to barely make it thought the old testament genealogies of who begat who to squeak their way up to the Gospels. Once they read the Gospels they feel the story is over and many put the good book down there. If that is the case the question then is, why even read the Gospels?

Why go even beyond paradise?

If one were to only touch the hem of the Christ's garment one would be saved... So to live beyond the Christ (bodily) is a splendid dream of God indeed.

It seems the complexity of my mind is such that if I do not leave a subject alone it is because it is unresolved.

The subject of liberty and law vexes me to such an extent. It seems to mock me and laugh at my own inability to visualize it's grandeur and shape. Liberty is but a fleeting glimpse into the infinitely diversified eye of God.

For now I can see it, law and liberty somehow "united"... But I do not know how, when or if it is presently united but unseen. It is something too big for me to conceptualize fully.

My mind is as far away seemingly from the answer as the constellation of Libra. That law, liberty and the spirit intermingle and the result is wisdom and victorious living is a mystery to me. That the scales of the heart with the spirit as it's guide weigh the secret issues of the soul, the spirit in unity with the body and soul.

Do law and liberty marry? Do they in mystery become one flesh? Is this flesh the very body of God, as we are all in the womb with God about to be born...

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

"Bible commentaries and Biblical writers frequently refer to both the church of the Gospels and the Church of the Epistles as the bride of Christ, thus making the two usages synonymous. Thus the relationship of Christ to the church of the Gospels and to the church of the book of Revelation in contrast to the Church of the Epistles has not been properly understood. The Word of God separates these two bodies with the bride of Christ being the church of the Gospels and the Body of Christ being the Church of the Epistles."

Comment:
Do you believe these statements to be true? If so what does it mean?