If Christ came back today

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What I think is that if christ were to return in this age he would be an enemy of the church, and a more than likely candidate for the title anti-christ...

Then you have no concept of who or what Christ was-or maybe it's the biblical concept of the anti-christ with which you are unfamiliar.

It is self-righteous bullshit to posit that Christ would be any more unhappy with "the church" -as if it is all one entity that's mutually identifiable and identical in terms of words, or deeds, or righteousness-than he would be with the secular world as it is today.

He'd be welcomed by my church- but I can't speak for any other- and neither can you.

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Are you so sure aidan?

The coming of christ would mean the same thing to the church as the coming of dinosaurs would mean to those who dig up dinosaurbones.

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Am I "so sure"- about which part of what I said?

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The coming of christ would mean the same thing to the church as the coming of dinosaurs would mean to those who dig up dinosaurbones

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I'm not sure what you mean here, but my initial reaction is to disagree. The coming of dinosaurs would mean the same thing to all humans, whether they dig up dinasaur bones or not-those who dig up the bones would just be a little more knowledgeable and interested -theoretically- instead of just scared shitless, like the rest of us.

But Christ returning is what Christians (at least) have been waiting for for milleniums. There is no implicit threat to Christians in his return. At least not in the Christian Bible I was raised on.

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Well, the church is the "authority" on christianity. It would no longer be that if christ were to return.

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I assume you're going by the biblical concepts of Christ and his return, as you're talking about his return as a possibility at all, so those are the parameters I'm working within in terms of my thinking.

And if Christ were to return, earthly life as we all know it, along with all its social constructs (like "authority") would cease to exist. So it wouldn't really be an issue.

But people being people, there'd probably be a lot of "I told you so's", and then a nice (probably short-lived) "golden age"... and then slowly but surely everyone would start jockeying for position again, and the whole damn mess would start all over- unless- this time- God woke up and decided not to give us all free will- and then maybe we'd all behave like good little automotons and keep the peace for a while.

But in terms of what the Christian Bible teaches about Christ's return, human authority wouldn't be an issue.

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Re: If Christ came back today

Cyracuz wrote:

If christ came back today...

How do you know he hasn't?

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The church would need proof that he was in fact Christ.

How would a person go about proving he was Christ?

Going by the rigmarole that the catholic church applies to becoming a saint (which seems to take forever) any person claiming to be Christ would likely be dead and gone b the time the church accepted the fact.

Said person would have to repeatedly perform "miracles" under scientific scrutiny in order to determine that there is no reasonable or rational explanation or the results. I imagine some kind of DNA testing would be done comparing the results with cell samples taken from "the shroud" "The prepuce" and other holy artifacts.

I think the "church" would loudly disclaim the person if only to not upset the power base and influence individuals have established for themselves.

Then some nutter from the bible bashing southern states would shoot the sucker.

I reckon if i was Christ-returned I'd keep my mouth shut and get into motorcycle racing.

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aidan: I think cyracuz is referring to the scenario wherein Jesus, the Son of God returns to Earth after being away and out of touch for two millennia. (Apparently it's been God the Father and the Holy Spirit who have been carrying out the supernatural duties for the period--answering prayers, making miracles, knocking down trees and power lines, causing floods-- all the usual things referred to as Acts of God.)

So Christ arrives in Galilee and is just in time to miss a quick rocket attack/reprisal in nearby Gaza.

He sits down in a small cafe and using his omniscient nature he looks over the history of the world since his leaving and sees all the acts that have been done in his name.-all those lovely baptisms, for example, but also all of the Crusades, the decimation of the people of the Western Hemisphere, the persecution of the Jews, the subjugation of millions of South East Asians by the British, by the Dutch, by the French, the apartheid of South Africa (also by the Dutch) and the long series of wars held between his own followers against other members of believers-whether in modern times as in the Troubles in Ireland and the attacks by the Bosnian Serbs or more ancient battles, such as the ones which, for almost 1000 years, bathed the earth in Europe in blood.

He sees the vast enterprise that has spread out over the entire planet, the churchs, the monasteries, the schools, the television networks, would he wonder where the simplicity of his message got lost?

Would Christ be pleased with what God has wrought?

Joe(or would he go to a nearby garden and weep?)Nation

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Would Christ be pleased with what God has wrought?

No, Christ would not be pleased-but I think he'd lay the blame squarely where it belongs-on human kind. And then he'd weep, I'm sure. But I don't think he'd separate out what "the church" had rendered on this earth from what anyone else affiliated or unaffiliated with any other organization or social construct had also rendered upon this earth.

Christ, as I understand him or the concept of him, doesn't group people-even as christians, non-christian, believers or non-believers- he doesn't apply labels, at least he didn't in his past incarnation as he is depicted in the New Testament Christian Bible. That tendency is purely human- and common to secularists and religionists.
No one is blameless for the mess we're in. I have trouble assigning more blame to any one group than another, and I don't think Christ would play that game either. I think he'd just cut to the chase, and do his best to try to straighten things out.

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You forgot the Inquisition and witch burning.

And also sister Agnes beating the hell out my buttocks when I was 10 then locking me in a cupboard for half the day. Which is less horrific (but only slightly) than my friend Michael who was repeatedly raped during our first year of high school by the Christian brothers who ran the high school.

Pedophiles and abusers are no more prevalent within the church than in the general population.

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Dadpad-are you talking to me? If so

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dadpad wrote:
You forgot the Inquisition and witch burning.

I'm not forgetting anything. I'm just saying that Christ judges people as individuals. And while he may not be pleased with what a group of individuals chose to do in his name, he might be pleased with what some other individuals chose to do in his name- or even not in his name.

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And also sister Agnes beating the hell out my buttocks when I was 10 then locking me in a cupboard for half the day. Which is less horrific (but only slightly) than my friend Michael who was repeatedly raped during our first year of high school by the Christian brothers who ran the high school.

I hate knowing that those things happened. And the people who did them are evildoers insinuating themselves into situations where they can take opportunities against those who are vulnerable. They might call themselves Christians, but they're not. And the heirarchy that protected them and allowed them to get away with those things are not either.
A label applied to someone or something, does not make that person or thing become whatever it is they are called or calling themselves. One of my favorite sayings from some old-timers I knew in Maine sums it up pretty neatly:
"A cat can have kittens in the oven, but that don't make them biscuits."

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Pedophiles and abusers are no more prevalent within the church than in the general population.

And in the boyscouts, and in education, and where ever there is the opportunity for predators to have access to prey (children). Sad, isn't it?

All I'm saying is that Christ, or my understanding of the concept of Christ- would be able to see through all pretense-labels included.

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So aiden consider the original question again.

If christ came back today...

Do you think he'd be welcomed by the church?

Do you think he'd welcome the church?

"The church" being the institutions and worlds largest corporation and its offshoots that promote the fairy story/legend of "Christ the Messiah" son of god.

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Not by "the church" as you've described it here-no.

But I know that there is no one "church". Just as there is no one "Australian" or one "American" who believes and acts identically to every other Australian or American.

Some people who are churchgoers would be sitting pretty - others wouldn't. Some unbelievers would be sitting pretty (by my concept of Christ-I think he just cares about what you choose to do with your life and time-not what you call yourself) and others wouldn't.

But old Sister Agnes and the christian brothers who used their position to rape and subjugate children- who are among those who cloaked their evil by performing it in Jesus' name, who would not be sitting pretty-in fact if there were degrees of judgment and condemnation, I think they'd be in for the most severe.

I understand some people don't believe and I have no problem with that-not a bit-sometimes I don't really know what I believe, but sometimes, don't you just want to believe so that there could be some kind of fair and equitable end judgment-for all the people who get away with stuff here on earth? That's part of what makes me have to believe-I have to be able to believe in some sort of justice (final or otherwise).

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but sometimes, don't you just want to believe so that there could be some kind of fair and equitable end judgment-for all the people who get away with stuff here on earth?

NO!
Its what happens when you are alive that matters. Believing a fairy (god) will judge me or someone else is a cop out on being responsible for yourself and your actions or inaction.

All this afterlife shite is a fantasy. Designed by clever manipulators over centuries to get people to suppot them (the manipulators) with food, sex and wealth.

Heaven, hell, Virgins in paradise, limbo, St Peter at the pearly gates. Angles flying around with harps and wings or whatever version thereof that happens to be currently in vogue. COME ON! WHAT GARBAGE!

When you're dead you're dead. Dont matter if you are good, evil or gay or muslim. You stop thinking, stop feeling there isnt anything else. end of story.

You are entitled to believe what you want but I would never defe3nd your right to believe this rubbish. I must say that It constantly surprises me how normal rational people accept these lies and fantasy. Ritual and social acceptance must be really really important to some people.

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I must say that It constantly surprises me how normal rational people accept these lies and fantasy

or you could look at it another way, instead of lies-rationalizations
instead of fantasy-intuition

but the fact remains that everyone faces what they must using different tools- and everyone has different names for those tools.

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Ritual and social acceptance must be really really important to some people.

I can't speak for others, but ritual is important to me- it's comforting-lends meaning, structure, and a sense of familiarity and celebration to my life.
Social acceptance is less important to me- but these days unless you travel in certain circles-religion no longer buys social acceptance- in fact it pretty much guarantees the opposite in some forums (not literal forums, although it holds true for those too).

As far as the afterlife goes-HOW DO YOU KNOW?!

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Code:HOW DO YOU KNOW?

because no-one has ever been able to show it or creditably prove an existence beyond the 3 dimensions (4 if you include time) we currently experience. And because religious people tell so many half truths, twists of reality and lies that I cannot give these fantasies credibility. I know atoms exist even though I cant see them. In the future if someone can prove, creditably, that there is some kind of afterlife I'd happily change my thinking. Our perceptions only exist because we have a brain. If the brain stops functioning there is no perception.

In times past people did not understand many aspects of the world and sought to rationalise it. These (religious) myths and rationalisations have continued far past a time when they are easily explainable by science.

How much credibility do church going Christians give to Australian Aboriginal stories of creation? Rainbow snakes and Animal gods are just as unbelievable as rising from the dead (unless he wasn't in fact dead, which I find much more believable.) These early Australian creation myths are just as believable (or not believable) as an afterlife.

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These early Australian creation myths are just as believable (or not believable) as an afterlife.

I agree 100%. In fact, if you take any culture and look at their creation myth, they all seek to explain or rationalize the same occurrence, in somewhat similar ways. And people can learn positive lessons from these myths (if you want to call them that) and can apply them to their lives productively. It's only when people pervert them that they become harmful and dangerous.

Dadpad-I can't defend Christianity or the church (as in "the church"). But I can defend the lessons of Christianity I was taught and the church in which I learned them. I can, because I know them, and I know that Jesus or Christ would not have a problem with what went on there. Because there was no violence or hate or abuse of the community or the world perpetrated within its four walls in Christ's name. There were just a lot of human beings, trying to do their best in life. That's it. I just can't find any fault with that. And there are a lot of churches like that-just like there are a lot of churches for which the opposite is surely true-without a doubt.
I just hate lumping all things together-you know -throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

And I don't even go to church anymore -for many of the reasons you stated- but I can't deny that the fact that I did still does some good in my life.

In terms of an afterlife though-it's still a simple, "I don't know, and by the same token that no one has proved there is, no one has proved there isn't- so I'm going to hope for the best".

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Aidan wrote:

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But I can defend the lessons of Christianity I was taught and the church in which I learned them. I can, because I know them, and I know that Jesus or Christ would not have a problem with what went on there. Because there was no violence or hate or abuse of the community or the world perpetrated within its four walls in Christ's name. There were just a lot of human beings, trying to do their best in life. That's it.

Well, I hope you didn't, but I suspect you did, learn this in that church:

aidan wrote:

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I have trouble assigning more blame to any one group than another, and I don't think Christ would play that game either.

It's the same kind of cop-out answer I've heard before, not just by you, Aidan, you just happen to be repeating it, when this kind of question has been raised. It's that the kind of thinking, based on 'judge not, lest ye be judged' and 'we shall have our reward in heaven' that leads to believers not seeking justice for the truly oppressed in the here and now.

Why should we fight for civil rights as long as know Christ will make all equal in the end?
Why should we seek to end poverty for millions?

We are here in our little church engaging in the rituals proper to ourselves and though the world outside must be troubled, we act as if there was nothing we as a group could do, and thus remain blameless.

Cop-out.

And those are just the members of a group, remember this group has been given the Word of God to operate from, who don't act. More times than not, when Christians act it's for the most unChrist-like motives ever dreamed of.

What would Jesus say about the current campaign to vilify homosexuals?
Or the pursuit of the War in Iraq as a Christian obligation? Or the concerted attempts to block science from stem-cell research and global warming investigations?

Sheesh.

Joe(the grace of one individual doesn't matter if it is drowned by the failings of millions.)Nation

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If Christ returned as a human, not as a bright light claiming the dead and having bodies float up to heaven, then my answer to whether or not the church would accept him is NO!

Since he isn't supposed to return to walk amongst us, Christians would not believe him to be Christ. (Reminds me of the song "What if God was one of us..." and the book Joshua.)

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If Christ came back today

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