Joe Nation wrote:What a relief! All this time I thought Muslims were generally upset at all other religions, but now you've shown me that it's all the Catholic's fault. (and, I hasten to add, they were the ones who headed the Crusades after all.) So, all we have to do is get Rome to drop the whole Three-Persons-In-One-God dogma.
I suggest you write a letter.
Oh, and don't forget to copy the Archbishops of Canterbury and Constantinople, we wouldn't want the Anglicans or the Greek Orthodox Church to be left out in the cold. Oh, and the Lutherans, don't forget them.
Of course you are going to have to deal with the problem of how many gods there are in Christianity and are they of the same substance? If Jesus is God and God is God and the Holy Spirit gets equal billing too, what have you got?
That old homoousios and homoiousios problem. I thought that had been settled by the First Council of Nicea in 315, no?
Good luck with this.
Joe(Well, what you haven't got is what's causing the West's problems with Islam)Nation
I was raised Lutheran so I do not excuse anyone.
The west's problem with Islam is that Islam has a problem with the west.
The church has built the trinity with a few vague scriptures and ignored then wealth of clear scriptures gravely warning of it's idolatry.
If the Bible had recorded something like Jesus saying, I am God and I was in the beginning when I created the world... Or if it said, Jesus the God of creation, it would only take a scripture of that magnitude of clarity to convince me that the Bible was truly a Trinitarian document. A scripture like that would shut me up forever. BUT THERE IS NONE LIKE THAT. Believe me I have searched diligently with an open mind people. It simply is not there....
There is no smoking gun when it comes to the trinity being a Biblical doctrine. But to dispute the trinity the Bible could not be more clear in it's language.
Here is an example that is widely unknown to any and all trinitarinas. Why? Because they have to completely ignore scriptures for their doctrine to work.
1Co 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.
Comment:
This scripture is not talking about the end of the world it is talking about the end of the end of the world. The Greek word is "talos" every dog has a tail but every dog has a tip of his tail. This verse is talking about the tip of the tail or the end of the end.
In the end of the end when all is accomplished this verse says that even the son will be subject unto the father. THIS VERSE COULD NOT BE WRITTEN AND MORE CLEAR AS A STATEMENT OF FACT.
The son shall be subject unto the father... HOW CAN JESUS BE CO-EQUAL IF HE IS MADE SUBJECT TO GOD IN THE END?
Did the council not read this?
The trinitarians base the entire trinity on scripture based on the words of doubting Thomas (a reliable source?) and the first verses of the gospel of John.
John says, "and the word was God"...
Now mind you, what does this verse not say? It does not say, Jesus was God. It could have, but it doesn't.
The Bible says also "the word became flesh"? Did those ask themselves what the word was "before" it was flesh? Well the word was "written" and carried around in the holy of holies. So we have an instance where the word was not flesh but a piece of ancient parchment.
If we go back even further there was a time when the word was not written down but it resided only in God's foreknowledge (mind) and sagas. Before the sagas, only in God's mind.
So I have shown you at least three "words" the living word, the written word and the word that was in God's mind alone. Which word was John talking about? Should we just assume it was Jesus alone and be done with the logic? Logically John could have been referring to three words separately in each verse, they all do not have to be referring to only the latter.
If Jesus was the word he was only an image of the word. So there are at least three words... in the mind of God, written and living.
So to substitute the name of Jesus with the word "word" is to become ignorant of the fact that the word existed in other forms before it "became flesh".
So we can consider that each usage of the word word in John 1:1 may be referring to a different aspect of the word and not just Jesus alone.
Why didn't John just write in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God? IT DOES NOT SAY THAT ANYWHERE...
It says in other places that Jesus was in the beginning but then it also says the "we" were in the beginning too... Where? As God??? No, that is ridiculous. We were with God in the beginning IN HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE.
Romans 8:29
For whom he did
foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and
foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Comment:
What is written folks, what is written?
The confusion comes where we see that God has this word in his mind and he conformed an
image (like the written word) of this word into his son. Wouldn't that make Jesus the word? NO it would make him and image also of that word but the real word is still God.
2Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the
image of God, should shine unto them.
Comment:
Can your IMAGE really be substituted for you?
Notice also John uses the words "IN" the beginning... This does not say "BEFORE" the beginning.
In the beginning God "created"... So John is referring to the created word and the word in the mind of God..
Also should we base our faith on the words of the council of Niece when these men were suspect pagan converts anyway? It is this very council that has led us to this war today.. Is it a just war? I say NO, not if it is based upon the trinity then it is unjust and the seeds lie in the greatest corruption of our time.
Peace with God.
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