We play, not IN, but AT society

You know, I'm having a very similar debate in a thread I started "Are we religious even if we aren't religious"

Not quite as all encompassing as this one though :wink:

Re: We play, not IN, but AT society

Common misconception. We have not "lost" our animal instincts, but learned to modify or override them in order to live in society. Natural selection and evolution are still in full force. Social "games" probably always were (and of course still are) the greatest force for determining "fitness" in the evolution of the brain because being able to play them well is the basis for rational mate selection as well as getting enough resources to thrive.

Some people have a sense of self-worth that is independent of the group. Some don't. Blanket statements that ignore the variability of human nature are inherently false.

Most people still have a sense of connection with nature, as evidenced by the popularity of public parks, pets, hunting, fishing, camping, backpacking, boating, hiking, gardening, rock climbing, birding, and popular vacation destinations. Of course there are people who are comfortable and happy in a city environment and have no desire to experience raw nature. So what? It's all part of the variation in human nature.

How is it irrational to adapt to a city environment, if that's the one you choose to live in?

And how, exactly, are these alleged fictions killing us?

Certainly you can look at life, war, law, and art as a game and not take it seriously. But that is not the way the majority see it. Life IS meaningful to us and the roles we choose to play in it are not "fictions", however much you and your intellectual ilk may wish to pretend otherwise.

BTW, art is not a game. It is a drive to express our feelings in ways that may not be obvious to those who have not been touched by a muse and cannot understand or empathize.


Who are you to judge which roles are "real" and which aren't?

Would you say that our religious roles are fictional or non-fictional? Are any of our roles non-fictional?

Terry


Let's think about our role as a parent. Is this parental role fictional or non-fictional?

I would say that insofar as feeding, clothing, and furnishing shelter and security our role is non-fictional. But what about driving kids to volley ball practice, or violin lessons, or cheerleader camp, etc.; are some of these fictional? Isn't there a division between what all mammals do as a parent versus what some of us consider to meaningful, i.e. fictional that others consider differently?

To say that we have fictional roles is not to say that those roles are not serious.

"All this the reader may reason and object about the analysis of mature sociology; and alas, he would be wrong. These are precisely the things that we do explain, when we talk about social fictions; we explain the breadth and depth of human evil with a clarity that is amazing…we are presented with the most terrible realization of all: that man's play-forms may even outwit human adaptation itself. The fiction can become greater than physical reality; the struggle fro survival becomes a struggle with the ideas one has inherited, and not with Nature itself."--Ernest Becker

There is nothing fictional about driving your kids to activities that may aid in their mental, physical, and emotional growth. The role of a human parent demands far more than simply providing food and shelter, unless you want to live as an animal. (Note that by your argument providing any clothing not necessary to protect children from the elements would also be a fictional role.) We must prepare our children to live in society, and that means giving them ALL of the tools necessary to interact with others - including learning the rules applicable to different situations, how to function as a team member, and muscle development from playing various sports; manual dexterity, timing, mathematical relationships of notes, and appreciation for music from playing a violin as part of a school orchestra; the importance of social support, teamwork, and physical development from cheerleader camp, etc.

Child's play IS serious work.

I don't know where Becker get his idea that a technological or social environment is any less real that a "natural" physical environment. Other animals alter their physical environment. Is a termite mound fictional?

Fiction is something invented by the imagination. Is capitalism invented by the imagination? Is religion? Is marriage? Is Nation and state? Is the flag? Is patriotism? Is love?

Two parts to your question
1. The existance of a God
How do you prove/disprove the existance of a God? (you can't)
2. Is the religion that forms around the belief in the existance of a God fictional?

I would say that many of our beliefs (religious, cultural, nationalist, patriotic etc), religious or not, bear the same characteristics.

As to what is reality - beliefs define who people are, and make the reality that people live in - even if that reality is an illusion. That is to say, there is little point trying to convince someone that they live in a fictional role, if that person firmly believes it to be reality - because it is reality for them.

Self awareness of ones own dearly held beliefs and their relation to reality is perhaps all a person can ask, because rarely can it ever be forced on someone else.

Coberst

Your distinction man vs nature is the real fiction. Everything humans have done they have done by the virtue of the power given us by nature. We are not isolated from nature. We are extensions of it. We ARE nature.

Thus, this...



...is a false statement.

And this...



...sounds like your way of elevating yourself above the ever mysterious "them". This fictional herd we all refer to when we need to boost our self-worth. Sure there are those who rely on the group to find their worth, but there are also those who do not, and so this generalization makes the statement false.

For the rest, I agree with Terry.

Humans live by symbol. Symbols are creations of imagination. Symbols are works of imagination i.e. works of fiction. Our problem is to create good fictions, i.e. good meaning good values that are in tune with our nature.

The problem isn't the illusion. The problem is when people believe that the illusion is the truth.