Tolstoy, and some thoughts on self-renunciaton

Tolstoy, certainly an interesting persona. He liked to dress in peasants garb and spend the day associating with the common man then go home to his mansion for roast pheasant while he sat by the fire with a fine glass of cognac and reminisce about the noble savage, interesting indeed.

thanks for the response, but you are painting an unfounded and unfair picture. After his conversion, Tolstoy was a vegetarian and did not drink, and he was like this for the last 20 years of his life.

So delete the cognac.

I tend to be judgemental

I don't know the facts or fancies about Tolstoy's life. I'm here to defend cognac...


But I take the point that a life without care of others is blunted. Renunciation of self? Pah. (Except, oh wait, in the non-dualistic framing of life, which I endeavor to understand.)

And, by the way, welcome to a2k, Mark.

(tangent - I just read recently about a decendant of Tolstoy arguing in some fashion about Pasternak and the CIA's purported involvement in the translation of Zhivago, but, naturally enough, I forget which point of view he had. No links right now.)

I believe there is something significant in what Tolstoy declares.
A person is more apt to acquire a deeper, long-term happiness
by denying him/her self and by loving and serving others.

Sure, a person also acquires happiness when one fulfills his/her
selfish needs and wants, but it is much shallower and shorter.

Yes, it's true, we might only serve others for the sake of our
conscience, but there's nothing wrong with that. In our society
today, paying attention to one's conscience is made to seem
silly, useless and a thing of the past. (how sad!)

Maybe Tolstoy got something from those peasants after all!

I used to be fascinated with Tolstoy.

Did you know that he was in written correspondence with Gandhi?

I believe Gandhi is responsible for much of Tolstoy's later practices.

Tolstoy did start out as a wild cat, and then he got old. He was an interesting fella.

Also, I think his wife shouldered a lot of the real work. I'd like to see what she had to say, but was unable to find anything from her.

I don't know the details, but I think he met with an unfortunate end.

When he got older his relationship with his wife took a turn for the
worse. There was a real conflict there!

After their last argument he left her and being old and sick, he died
at a railroad station waiting for a train.

<As a follow-up to my tangent, I'll give a link to that article on a new book by Ivan Tolstoy - HERE - not related to the subject of this thread>

I was talking to someone who grew up in Algeria, and we were talking about the pros and cons of growing up in our specific countries of origin.
He apparantly grew up fairly privileged, never having to work even into adulthood, but something happened that changed his circumstances, and by the point that I was talking to him, he was in a situation where he had absolutely nothing of material value and no resources with which to get them.

He asked me about life in the US, and I told him it was an easy place for some people to live-everything you could possibly need or want was very abundant, and availably convenient as long as you were not poor.

He said, "Have you ever been poor?" I said, "No, not really. As a young adult I had to struggle to make it on my own, but I've never been what anyone would consider impoverished." He said, "That's too bad then, because you've never known true happiness."

I found that statement intriguing, but didn't have time to pursue it further, although next time I see him, I'm going to ask him to explain. But it reminded me of what people I've known (Americans) have said when they have returned from working in or visiting Africa. They always say that many of the people have absolutely nothing- not even their health-yet they seem innately much happier than most Americans. Maybe that phenomenon speaks to the topic of this thread.

Definitely Aidan!

In those poorer countries (not only in Africa) there seems to be a
stronger sense of community. The people are very dependent on
each other and their sense of friendship and relationships with others
is deeper. They are so willing to share what little they have.

Here, we take pride in our independence and many are striving
to be little kings or queens, not needing anybody. This furthers
our decrease in community and our increase in isolationism.

(BTW, Air conditioning, DVD players and internet help further that
increase in isolationism as well!)

Yes, that's a virtue or characteristic that is preached to almost every American from the time they are born.

In terms of our government, I'd agree, but when speaking in terms of individuals, I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I'm happy to say very few of my family or friends display such an attitude. I freely acknowledge I would be lost and bereft without my family and friends and that the knowledge that I can and will always be able to depend on them is instrumental in giving me confidence to face the world and any problems I might encounter. I think they feel they can count on me in the same way.
And I've met very few people who have ever expressed the sentiment that they wished they were more isolated as individuals.
Those who I've talked to who don't have a family unit or support system they can count on usually express the fact that they wish that they did, so I'm curious what experiences have you had that lead you to believe this to be true about Americans?

But I do agree that our lifestyle and the increase in the use of various technologies has caused an increase in the tendency to isolate. Alot depends on where you live though. When I lived in a small town in Maine, I saw people outside walking, doing yard work, kids playing in the park or riding their bikes, etc. at all hours of the day from morning to night. When I lived in Chapel Hill, NC- I could walk outside on a perfect summer Saturday at 2:00 in the afternoon in certain neighborhoods and not see a soul. Sometimes it reminded me of a science fiction movie in which the humans had been mysteriously transported and the earth had been abandoned. The only sound would be the hissing of the sprinklers. All the children would be inside (in the air conditioning-as you said) playing video and computer games. It was sad. I moved.

What I meant to say was that the virtue or characteristic of independence which is preached to us at an early age has the general
effect of discouraging us to ask for help or maybe even to give help.

I wasn't meaning family and friends, but neighbors or members of the
community you might not know very well, or even strangers.

This isolationism is a trend which is increasing. Our sense of independence along with this isolationism trend is discouraging the
growth of our community relationships.

Unfortunately, I believe the small town life in Maine which you described is slowly disappearing. I now live in a small town in Nebraska and it
very much fits your description of Chapel Hill, NC.

Thinking about what aidan has said. I do think there is something to being poor and learning about where happiness is at. If ya ain't got nothing, you get a chance to see the world from a different perspective.
Stripped bare of so much attention on numbers and articles, a person gets a chance to look at what is truly worth something in this world.
It can go either way though.
Growing up poor can produce some of the greediest people alive. Stuck in a starvation mentality. Constantly in fear.

I think it is very individual and also very much about how a person views community. Whether the person values community.

I think growing up somewhere with strong community ties - yes, even with a sense of duty to your fellow person nearby (duty doesn't seem like a popular word anymore, instantly brings up rebellion) - helps pave the way for valuing it later in life.
Remembering how others have helt you up, though they didn't really have to, makes it more difficult to turn a blind eye to someone else in need.

As far as isolation and individualism goes, that rings true here as well. Values have changed even in the short span of years I have been around.