Can we win in Afghanistan, Iraq?

You need to define "win" before we can answer the question. c.i.

Yah. We lost the minute we set foot in there...

Sun Tzu said something on the order of The only war that is won is the war that is never fought...

c.i. stole my thunder here . . . so, yeah, what he said . . .


I'd only modify it to say that i have believed (and not naively so, but more in the nature insisting that the administration live up to the standard of what it has proposed) we are in the midst of a war on terror. Therefore, i would contend that there is nothing to "win" in Afghanistan . . . and no reason to be in Iraq at all. That we are in Iraq simply means to me that we will have won at such time as we achieve the administration's stated (and probably lying) goal of establishing representative democracy there.

C.I.
In Afghanistan the Taliban no longer rules and Al Qaeda does not have major training facilities. As for Iraq the regime change has been achieved and Saddam and the Baath party no longer rules. That is the victory, the failure is we do not know how or are unable to capitalize on the "victory".

winning the war is a moot (arguable) point. winning the peace is another.

Dsyslexia
That of course is the question are we capable of winning the peace? To this point it would appear that we are not.

Iraq could launch an attack on the UK and the US within 45 minutes and kill millions instantly with Saddams WMD. Where are they? We all have been lied to. Manipulated,.... The war for the hearts and minds of the world is lost.

And in Iraq? People get shot by US soldiers or Saddamloyalist or looters or gangs or... From dusk till dawn the streets in Iraq are dead. The power hasn't been restored properly and the water supply is a mess! Rumours in Iraq spread that the US wants to punish the Iraqi for the recent attacks on their sodiers. That they only came for the oil and aren't interested in helping the Iraqi,.... Those rumours cause huge damage. The war for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi will be lost soon.

We can't win because both of these countries are organized politically in the same way. They have only two modes.

1) a strong central authority and an oppressive government.
2) a weak central authority and strong local (usually kin based)
authorities competing with one another, usually with low
level warfare resulting in a chaotic and factionalized society.

The Talaban and Hussain were examples of the first, the Afghan warlords and the growing chaos in Iraq are examples of the second.

The only way to change these kinds of societies is to do a bottom to top restructuring, and that takes at least a generation, time we do not have.

Very well stated, Acquink.

We've got young soldiers over there who were trained to fight, and haven't the foggiest idea how to keep peace, and they certainly weren't given any training in the vast differences in the culture and beliefs of the people. One example is that they were using dogs to sniff out weapons during night raids. Muslims consider dogs unclean and to have soldiers bringing them into their houses was a great insult. Then, due to faulty intelligence innocent people were arrested in the middle of the night, to be let go after days of detention once it was found that the people were innocent, after all.

We are so far away from being able to help restructure that it's pathetic. Because of our lack of cultural awareness, we can't even keep out own soliers safe.

Acquiunk, Setanta

We came, we saw, we conquered and now we are stuck with the fruits of our "victory". We cannot cut and run and must stay as long as it takes.

edition

Iraqis begin warming to US presence

A recent poll shows nearly two-thirds of Baghdad residents want the US to stay until Iraq is stable.

By Scott Peterson | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

DOURA AND FALLUJAH, IRAQ – Starting at dawn Monday, American soldiers searching for weapons on the southern outskirts of Baghdad knocked on door after door, visiting house after house. On 2,300 separate visits, they were let in by quietly cooperative Iraqis, and then moved on. The last major sweep of the two-week-long Operation Desert Scorpion netted just eight Kalashnikovs, a sniper rifle, and a handful of pistols. But it also showed how many Iraqis - despite a recent surge of lethal anti-US attacks - are resigning themselves to American occupation.
Nearly three months after the fall of Baghdad, and amid still chronic shortages of basics like electricity, Iraqis and US military and civilian officials alike say relations are beginning to mature, as both sides adjust to the new reality across Iraq.

continued
http://csmonitor.com/2003/0701/p01s01-woiq.html

"The war has moved into a disturbing new phase, a guerrilla, counter-insurgency phase. We need to adapt," said retired Army Gen. Dan Christman, a former Pentagon (news - web sites) planner.
Six more U.S. soldiers were wounded on Tuesday and a fatal blast at a mosque fueled Muslim anger toward U.S. forces.
Christman and other military analysts said the United States needed to adapt by getting more boots on the ground to deter attacks and to enable politicians to focus on nation-building and win over a distrustful Iraqi population.
"Our army is absolutely stretched thin and we ought to be reaching out to all of those countries who are offering to send troops -- the Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, the Indians, and NATO (news - web sites) -- I'm not sure why we have been reluctant to pick up a NATO offer," said the retired general.

I think many countries are reluctant to send their combat soldiers into Iraq. I for sure know nobody supports the idea in (Old) Europe. They were against this war in the first place. Why would they get their soldiers killed in a war they never wanted, to help a country that has insulted and bullied them.

Japan sends in some engineers, but if u ask them to send soldiers into the streets of Bagdad they would probably refuse. The US always said they wanted Saddam out, even if they had to do it alone. Well, now let them do it on theirself.

The Turkish army chief of staff, General Hilmi Ozkok, has given his soldiers the order to open fire at any foreign force that poses a threat or wants to arrest them.

Seems like the US soldiers got a new enemy in the neighbourhood.

source: Knack.be, and they got it from a Turkish newspaper: Milliyet

seems to me the Turkish response has been a long time coming.

frolic

Might well be that Milliyet reorted such.

However, as far as I could follow up the Turskish press (Turkish Press Scan), General Hilmi Ozkok was quoted different (when speaking to the public/press).

I got the news from a Der Spiegel-like Flemish magazine, Knack. And they got it from Milliyet. So it well could be that somewhere on the road the words got a bit twisted.

I didn't doubt that at all - and I know Knack :wink: .

Just wanted to point at the 'official' press releases.