God is not what he seems

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Christian beliefs about God are fundamentally illogical and require one to develop sufficient faith to ignore all of the points you have mentioned. But I doubt that the Christian version of God is even close to correct. I do not believe that any part of our mind can survive death and punishment/paradise is just a carrot/stick developed to foster belief and fill church coffers, much as I might wish for vengeance on those who do not get what they deserve in this life.

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First. God does not love unconditionally, except those who do good and are believers.

As for those who believe and do right actions, the All-Merciful will bestow His love upon them. (Surah Maryam, 96)

Again,

You will never cease to come upon some act of treachery on their part, except for a few of them. Yet pardon them and overlook. Allah loves good-doers. (Surat al-Ma'ida, 13)

It is true, God decrees everything beforedhand.

Nothing occurs, either in the earth or in yourselves,without its being in a Book before We make it happen. That is something easy for Allah. (Surat al-Hadid: 22)

But this does not mean you do not have free-will. God does not wrong anyone, rather it is people who wrong their own souls.

As for Heaven and Hell, they are both true. This temporary life is nothing more than a test for the Hereafter.

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Raul, what happens to good people who were not raised to believe in Islam?

Why would anyone "wrong their own souls" if God/Allah had not made them incapable of acting otherwise, or put them in a position where they would be naturally inclined to make the "wrong" choice thinking it was the best one for them? No rational person would choose to spend eternity in hell, if they truly had free will and certain knowledge of what God/Allah wanted of them.

How do you KNOW that what you read in your book is true? What if there is no afterlife, and you waste this one preparing yourself for something that doesn't exist?

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Terry wrote:

Raul, what happens to good people who were not raised to believe in Islam?

You mean an aetheist or just a believer who doesn't happen to follow the Islamic religion?

Terry wrote:

Why would anyone "wrong their own souls" if God/Allah had not made them incapable of acting otherwise, or put them in a position where they would be naturally inclined to make the "wrong" choice thinking it was the best one for them? No rational person would choose to spend eternity in hell, if they truly had free will and certain knowledge of what God/Allah wanted of them.

They wrong themselves because they choose to persue their desires instead searching for the Truth even after it has been conveyed to them throughout God's obvious signs.

Messengers bringing good news and giving warning, so that people will have no argument against Allah after the coming of the Messengers. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat an-Nisa': 165)

God put us on this Earth for a reason, it is was to worship Him and submit to His will. This life is nothing more than temporary for your true life in the Hereafter. Thus you can give up this fleeting existence in persuing the Straight Path (submission) and have eternal Paradise, or you can persue whatever you want to in this life without observing God's set limits but you won't have a share of Paradise in the Hereafter.

God does not want his creations to spend an eternity in Hell either and that's why He calls them towards the Truth (submission to Him alone). But unfortunately most of us choose to listen to our lusts, desires and Satan instead who wants nothing more than to make us follow him (Satan) to his determined destiny, Hell. That's his sole purpose on this Earth, to divert as many people as he can off God's straight path and bring them to Hell with him. But unfortunately most of do not know this.

Satan made their actions seem good to them and so debarred them from the Way, even though they were intelligent people. (Surat al-'Ankabut: 38)

God is giving us a chance to turn to Him, if he wanted he couldv'e destoryed all the unbelievers and replaced with them with perfect Angels who did nothing but submit to Him constantly. But that's not what He wants. He wants creations who are tempted and yet choose to submit to God instead of their desires, He knows not everyone is an Angel and thus why He much prefers a righteous believer over a perfect Angel.

God even pleas to mankind-

O Humanity! Allah's promise is true. Do not let the life of this World delude you and do not let the Deluder [Satan] delude you about Allah. Satan is your enemy, so treat him as an enemy. He summons his party so they will be among the people of the Searing Blaze. (Surah Fatir: 5-6)

Thus God left you with the choice, follow Him or Satan? Do you want to really search for the Truth or are you content with this Life alone? Ultimately you alone will face the consequences of each choice.

Terry wrote:

How do you KNOW that what you read in your book is true? What if there is no afterlife, and you waste this one preparing yourself for something that doesn't exist?

I know is is true because I have Faith. This life isn't a game where you are free to do whatever you like, it's a test.

"Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is between!" (Surat al-Anbiya, 21:16)

As for the Quran, I know it is true because reading it in Arabic I have no doubt that anyone else could have compiled it with such beautiful peotic prose running throughout the whole 500 pages of verses. A no human could have predicted the Big Bang, the Orbit of the Planets, the roundness of the Earth and the detail of the human creation 1400 years ago.

One example-

He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness. That is God, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you turn away from Him?

Indeed, modern biology has established that the baby in the mother's womb does go through three different stages of development, just as is stated in this verse. i) pre-embryonic: first two and a half weeks; (ii) embryonic: until the end of the eighth week, and (iii) fetal: from the eighth week to labor.

Further, the Quran has been preserved to this day unlike the other previous Scriptures and this was a promise from Allah.

It is We Who have sent down the Reminder and We Who will preserve it. (Surat al-Hijr: 9)

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Terry wrote:

Raul, what happens to good people who were not raised to believe in Islam?

You mean an aetheist or just a believer who doesn't happen to follow the Islamic religion?

Terry wrote:

Why would anyone "wrong their own souls" if God/Allah had not made them incapable of acting otherwise, or put them in a position where they would be naturally inclined to make the "wrong" choice thinking it was the best one for them? No rational person would choose to spend eternity in hell, if they truly had free will and certain knowledge of what God/Allah wanted of them.

They wrong themselves because they choose to persue their desires instead searching for the Truth even after it has been conveyed to them throughout God's obvious signs.

Messengers bringing good news and giving warning, so that people will have no argument against Allah after the coming of the Messengers. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat an-Nisa': 165)

God put us on this Earth for a reason, it is was to worship Him and submit to His will. This life is nothing more than temporary for your true life in the Hereafter. Thus you can give up this fleeting existence in persuing the Straight Path (submission) and have eternal Paradise, or you can persue whatever you want to in this life without observing God's set limits but you won't have a share of Paradise in the Hereafter.

God does not want his creations to spend an eternity in Hell either and that's why He calls them towards the Truth (submission to Him alone). But unfortunately most of us choose to listen to our lusts, desires and Satan instead who wants nothing more than to make us follow him (Satan) to his determined destiny, Hell. That's his sole purpose on this Earth, to divert as many people as he can off God's straight path and bring them to Hell with him. But unfortunately most of do not know this.

Satan made their actions seem good to them and so debarred them from the Way, even though they were intelligent people. (Surat al-'Ankabut: 38)

God is giving us a chance to turn to Him, if he wanted he couldv'e destoryed all the unbelievers and replaced with them with perfect Angels who did nothing but submit to Him constantly. But that's not what He wants. He wants creations who are tempted and yet choose to submit to God instead of their desires, He knows not everyone is an Angel and thus why He much prefers a righteous believer over a perfect Angel.

God even pleas to mankind-

O Humanity! Allah's promise is true. Do not let the life of this World delude you and do not let the Deluder [Satan] delude you about Allah. Satan is your enemy, so treat him as an enemy. He summons his party so they will be among the people of the Searing Blaze. (Surah Fatir: 5-6)

Thus God left you with the choice, follow Him or Satan? Do you want to really search for the Truth or are you content with this Life alone? Ultimately you alone will face the consequences of each choice.

Terry wrote:

How do you KNOW that what you read in your book is true? What if there is no afterlife, and you waste this one preparing yourself for something that doesn't exist?

I know is is true because I have Faith. This life isn't a game where you are free to do whatever you like, it's a test.

"Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is between!" (Surat al-Anbiya, 21:16)

As for the Quran, I know it is true because reading it in Arabic I have no doubt that anyone else could have compiled it with such beautiful peotic prose running throughout the whole 500 pages of verses. A no human could have predicted the Big Bang, the Orbit of the Planets, the roundness of the Earth and the detail of the human creation 1400 years ago.

One example-

He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness. That is God, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you turn away from Him?

Indeed, modern biology has established that the baby in the mother's womb does go through three different stages of development, just as is stated in this verse. i) pre-embryonic: first two and a half weeks; (ii) embryonic: until the end of the eighth week, and (iii) fetal: from the eighth week to labor.

Further, the Quran has been preserved to this day unlike the other previous Scriptures and this was a promise from Allah.

It is We Who have sent down the Reminder and We Who will preserve it. (Surat al-Hijr: 9)

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Well i see it like this. God loves it when you do what he wants, but he plays hard to get. So God makes up a bunch of rules and trys to get you to serve him as he plays mind games, but if you give up to play something else he gets pissed and BAM your in hell.

This theory works for everything. Prayer, if he already knows why ask? he likes you to beg. Its basically a big dating game where you have to go through all the motions and if he sees you played it all well then your in heaven, but check out another religion and your screwed.

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Jakob Boehme, writing in the seventeenth century, characterized God as an inconceivable essence. Boehme's description of God is the most interesting I have ever read:

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When I ponder, what God is, I then say: He is the One in contrast to the creature, as an eternal Nothing. He has neither a foundation, a beginning nor state; and is of naught, save only of Himself. He is the Will of the Abyss. He occupies neither space nor place. From eternity in eternity in Himself He comes to be. He is like or similar to nothing, and hath no particular place which He inhabits.

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God is not what he seems

I disagree. God seems to be non-existent. I think that's exactly what he is.

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Yes very interesting argument.
What though, if there is a omnipotent God, in His love decided not to create creatures with no brains and no choice but instead with the choice to choose between Him or not. Is not this true love. To create creatures with no choice at all but instead pre-programable data to blindly bow and serve, could be argued to be dictatorial. It may be that his love was to create humans who could choose to serve or not to serve.

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How do you suppose a GOD would deal with someone who simply tells the truth...that he does not KNOW if there are any gods...and that the evidence for an against a GOD or gods is so ambiguous, intelligent people can evaluate it and come to opposite and irreconsilable conclusions based on it?

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Why do you think there is a God? What evidence do you have for its existence? Why attribute human emotions and quirks to a God?

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Raul-7 wrote:

Terry wrote:
Raul, what happens to good people who were not raised to believe in Islam?

You mean an aetheist or just a believer who doesn't happen to follow the Islamic religion?

Yes: what happens to good people who follow other religions, and what happens to good atheists?

Quote:

God put us on this Earth for a reason, it is was to worship Him and submit to His will. This life is nothing more than temporary for your true life in the Hereafter. Thus you can give up this fleeting existence in persuing the Straight Path (submission) and have eternal Paradise, or you can persue whatever you want to in this life without observing God's set limits but you won't have a share of Paradise in the Hereafter.

What kind of egotistical God gets off on having people worship and obey him? Why would God deny Paradise to people who are free thinkers and live their own lives as they see fit (without harming others) and develop their own maximum potential without following a specific set of rules?

Quote:

God does not want his creations to spend an eternity in Hell either and that's why He calls them towards the Truth (submission to Him alone). But unfortunately most of us choose to listen to our lusts, desires and Satan instead who wants nothing more than to make us follow him (Satan) to his determined destiny, Hell. That's his sole purpose on this Earth, to divert as many people as he can off God's straight path and bring them to Hell with him. But unfortunately most of do not know this.

Why do you suppose that some people are able to overcome their lusts, and some aren't? I doubt that anyone chooses to spend eternity in hell, so do you think that God just made some people weaker than others? Do you think that it was fair for God to create a Tempter that he knew billions of people would be unable to resist? Why does Satan want us to end up in hell? Is he egotistical like God and just wants people to bend to his will?

Quote:

Thus God left you with the choice, follow Him or Satan? Do you want to really search for the Truth or are you content with this Life alone? Ultimately you alone will face the consequences of each choice.

Why do I have to choose to follow EITHER God or Satan? I can be a good person by following my own conscience, without kowtowing to any alleged deity.

I see no reason to believe any of the hundreds of mutually-contradictory religions that all claim to have the Ultimate Truth. I have not yet found the Truth, but strongly suspect that this life is all we get and we should make the most of it instead of hoping for compensation when we die. If the afterlife is so great, why are most people so reluctant to die?

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As for the Quran, I know it is true because reading it in Arabic I have no doubt that anyone else could have compiled it with such beautiful peotic prose running throughout the whole 500 pages of verses. A no human could have predicted the Big Bang, the Orbit of the Planets, the roundness of the Earth and the detail of the human creation 1400 years ago.

One example-

He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness.

Even ancient people could see from the products of miscarriages that fetuses go through many stages of development. That is hardly proof of anything. Anyone can look at passages in the Bible or Quran, creatively interpret or ascribe unintended meanings to them and then claim that they refer to something that you already know from other sources. The real test is whether anyone could have learned anything new about the big bang' planets, or Earth strictly from reading the Quran. If not, it is illogical to claim that God gave the writers special knowledge.

Quote:

Further, the Quran has been preserved to this day unlike the other previous Scriptures and this was a promise from Allah.

The fact that people have faithfully copied a document is not proof that the contents are true or correct. Errors are as easy to copy as facts.

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Terry wrote:

Yes: what happens to good people who follow other religions, and what happens to good atheists?

The only religion God accepts is submission to Him alone. He won't accept anything other than that no matter how good the person happens to be.

But the Unbelievers, their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account. (Surat an-Noor, 39)

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What kind of egotistical God gets off on having people worship and obey him? Why would God deny Paradise to people who are free thinkers and live their own lives as they see fit (without harming others) and develop their own maximum potential without following a specific set of rules?

That's what you were put on this Earth for. Like it or not, everything on this Earth is subservient to Him - including you. He determines everything that happens to you, whether or not you will live to tommorow and whether or not you will be able to put food on your table everyday. It is all from Him.

No indeed! Truly man is unbridled seeing himself as self-sufficient. (Surat al-'Alaq: 6-7)

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Why do you suppose that some people are able to overcome their lusts, and some aren't? I doubt that anyone chooses to spend eternity in hell, so do you think that God just made some people weaker than others? Do you think that it was fair for God to create a Tempter that he knew billions of people would be unable to resist? Why does Satan want us to end up in hell? Is he egotistical like God and just wants people to bend to his will?

God already knows this.

We created man and We know what his own self whispers to him. We are nearer to him than his jugular vein. (Surah Qaf: 16)

If a person really wants to become pious God will help him given that the person sincerely wants to change. After all, only through calling upon God will they be able to overcome Satan. Satan only has control over the weak-minded.

He [Satan] said, "My Lord, because You misled me, I will make things on the Earth seem good to them and I will mislead them all, every one of them, except Your servants among them who are sincere." (Surat al-Hijr, 39-40)

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Why do I have to choose to follow EITHER God or Satan? I can be a good person by following my own conscience, without kowtowing to any alleged deity.

No.

"I only created jinn and man to worship Me." (Surat adh-Dhariyat: 56)

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I see no reason to believe any of the hundreds of mutually-contradictory religions that all claim to have the Ultimate Truth. I have not yet found the Truth, but strongly suspect that this life is all we get and we should make the most of it instead of hoping for compensation when we die. If the afterlife is so great, why are most people so reluctant to die?.

Because they fear their fate in the Hereafter, they know that God's promise is true but they are too content with this Life when the Hereafter is better and longer-lasting. Only a true believer will be content with death as he knows that he will be graciously rewarded.

Say: 'Death, from which you are fleeing, will certainly catch up with you. Then you will be returned to the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible and He will inform you about what you did.' (Surat al-Jumu'ah: 8)

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Even ancient people could see from the products of miscarriages that fetuses go through many stages of development. That is hardly proof of anything. Anyone can look at passages in the Bible or Quran, creatively interpret or ascribe unintended meanings to them and then claim that they refer to something that you already know from other sources. The real test is whether anyone could have learned anything new about the big bang' planets, or Earth strictly from reading the Quran. If not, it is illogical to claim that God gave the writers special knowledge.

No they couldn't, they could barely even count yet alone study the human embroyo at that time. Go look up Quranic Embroyolgy.

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The fact that people have faithfully copied a document is not proof that the contents are true or correct. Errors are as easy to copy as facts.

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (Quran 4:82)

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Hey Frank,

It's just occured to me that you may be playing a very sophisticated game of Pascal's Wager, wherein you avoid offending as many gods as possible...just in case one of them turns out to be legit' !!

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Eorl wrote:

Hey Frank,

It's just occured to me that you may be playing a very sophisticated game of Pascal's Wager, wherein you avoid offending as many gods as possible...just in case one of them turns out to be legit' !!

Nope.

I think Pascal's Wager is absurd.

I am simply sticking with the truth. In the matter of "what is this all about"...the notion that there is a GOD or gods (a beingness or beingnesses that transcend what we consider to be "reality") is in no way implausible...and makes as much sense to me as any guesses about it which exclude gods. I do not know which it is...and the evidence available is too ambiguous to use as the basis for a meaningful guess.

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God is not what he seems

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