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Istanbul Diary(Warning:Adult content, and serious questions)

 
 
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 07:25 am
Greetings from the city which spans two continents, where two cultures come together and exist in peaceful harmony. Where men are men and sheep are.... (oops, that is for Wales)...Where men are men and I am the stud !! Wink

While I will not bore you with the details of my work (or do u really want to hear abt campaign and sales management for consumer bank in emerging markets ?? Smile ), I do wanted to give you all (ok, ok, who closely follow my life Tee Hee) a short description of my evenings (needless to say, that I dated 3 men in three nights) - and in the process ask some serious questions as well. Ideally, I should have posted this in the "relationships" and "spiritiual" categories, but I still dont know how to post the same post in two categories at the same time. And I am too lazy to find them, specially when I am not on my own computer (I am at the airport in Istanbul waiting for my delayed flight !!)

Once again, I will not bore you with the details of how I ended up with 6 phone numbers within 2 hrs on Sunday evening. (Anyone who wants tips can send me a pvt msg Smile ), but what happened after that gets a bit interesting...

Sun Evening - Nothing great, except the guy I met, his father was half persian and half turkish, and the mother was half italian and half yugoslavian - he was one of the most good looking men I have ever met - and a role model in "exoticness" LOL

Mon Evening- I met a guy from New Zealand (talk abt international relationships - a british Indian, a kiwi in the land of Turks !!!) and the post coital conversation was absolutely amazing. Some how the topic turned to failed relationships, and he told me abt the two relationships which ended very acrimoniously for him. And so did I (abt the guy in Prague - and I am so chatty after 4 vodkas and good sex, in my sober state I would have never told him)....Anyways, he was a buddhist, and he told me that it is very important for us human beings to come to a closure in everyone relationships which we have, which is not acrimonius. He said that maybe the guy was hurt as much as I was, maybe he wasn't. But in the remote chance that he was, I was contributing to his unhapiness, and while I was doing it, I could never attain true happiness. In short, he managed to convince me - he was very articulate, and refuted each of my point wonderfully. But in the end, I did end up ringing up Petr (the guy in Prague) and have a decent conversation with him. You know what, he did burst into tears while we were speaking, and that is when I realized how much I had hurt him (even though he was the one who started the fight). But we agreed to remain friends -no relationship, but just friends and keep in touch with each other regularly.

So my question is - Did I do the right thing ? Or I compromised my ego, my self by calling him up ? Am I sucker for falling for my date's arguments ? Would you do the same thing ?

Tue Evening - This turkish guy came over - and he was damn nervous, I could see that. I told him that its okay, he does not have to do anything, we can have a drink and call it quits. There was no pressure from my side. But then I should mention that he was the one who had approached me, chatted me up, given me his phone number first and for 2 days in a row, kept sending me naughty messages on SMS. But anyways, we had a drink and then he took the initiative and...well.. err. what was supposed to happen, happened. But then post facto - he took a major guilt trip !!! He told me how it was forbidden in his religion and how he should not have done this etc etc etc. The funny part is that he just sat there, feeling guilty, rather that wear his clothes and go. But seeing his obvious distress, I started feeling guilty myself, and tried to talk to him out of it. I told him that just becasue he slept with a man, does not make him a bad person. His religion forbids him to do many things (smoke drink etc) but he still does them without feeling guilty !! he also slept with woman before marriage, and that is forbidden in his relgion too !! But I could not convince him. Though afer a while I wanted to tell him - look mate, if you ever go to hell, you are sure to meet me and then we can have great sex again !! Laughing Or just go, so that I can use phone number 4 before it gets too late Laughing He was okay after a while and left, but not before it was too late to do naything else but sleep Sad

But jokes aside - my question is - regarding sex, if sleeping with a woman before marriage is sin, then why not have a guilty feeling about it, but have guilty feeling abt sleeping with a man ? And why treat your partner as a man or a woman ? Why not as a human being first ??

Anyways, Istanbul is always fun, a great place to be in, catch up with all my old friends, date a lot and make some new ones in the process. The free booze is calling, so I'd better end my long long post. I hope you have enjoyed reading it, we will have a good discussion on my two questions and if anyone wants to come to Ist with me in October - I am yr MAN !!!!

And btw, it is okay to feel jealous of my 100% success rate !! Tee Hee
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 3,306 • Replies: 24
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 07:33 am
oh oh oh! How exciting! Where to start? Omigawd - 6! 6 numbers?

You absolutely did the right thing in calling petr!

I do feel jealous! Yes, do tell us about the getting of the numbers!

And as for the sex guilt and spiritual Qs, I'm not the person to answer them.......

mymymymy, mutter mutter mutter....
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 07:48 am
Re: Istanbul Diary(Warning:Adult content, and serious questi
Gautam wrote:
So my question is - Did I do the right thing ? Or I compromised my ego, my self by calling him up ? Am I sucker for falling for my date's arguments ? Would you do the same thing ?


Compromised your ego? Well, if that's what you did.. what's so terrible about it? Seems to me you just cleared the air with petr. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Quote:
But jokes aside - my question is - regarding sex, if sleeping with a woman before marriage is sin, then why not have a guilty feeling about it, but have guilty feeling abt sleeping with a man ? And why treat your partner as a man or a woman ? Why not as a human being first ??


Seems like the same thing to me. If someone's religion defines "sins" then a sin is a sin is a sin...

Quote:
And btw, it is okay to feel jealous of my 100% success rate !! Tee Hee


lol
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 10:18 am
Guatam...LOL!
Thanks so much for sharing all this with us...you really are the lucky man living such a fun filled loving life, its great. Good for you, glad it is such a success for you.

RE: Petr
Do you think you did the right thing? You say you are still friends, isnt it important to be on good terms with your friends? It sounds like it was something that you previously had trouble doing for him and perhaps his well being. You overcame whatever it was that was holding you back from doing this. If someone new in your life gave you the strength and understanding to do this well, then bravo..I think thats fabulous. If you were to be hit by a bus tomorrow and could look back, do you thinnk you would be happier to have done this? Is is a good Karma feeling for you? If yes, then..fine job.

Re: Sex and religion male/female
Sins are those things of a human nature...doesnt matter what nature the human. However, societies have more greatly accepted the sins of heterosexual pre marriage affairs so, therefore its a bit skewed...but, I think you know that already.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 10:30 am
Gautam, sweetie, I'd say you did the right thing by calling Petr. I don't know when you last talked to him, but you seem somewhat surprised by the fact that he burst into tears -- I think that really points toward there being unresolved issues, and perhaps the conversation helped to resolve them. That's always a good thing.

As for the guilt, for whatever reason, homosexuality packs a big guilt-wallop in a lot of societies. People have pre-marital heterosexual sex and know that's a no-no, but it's kind of "well, everyone does it..." It's just not on the same level, at all (OK, I know nothing about Istanbul, but here and many other places) as being gay or having gay sex. Ideally, this whole human-first thing would be true universally, but it really, really ain't. I'm glad that you seem free of that guilt! (Which is silly and pointless, IMO, no matter how real it may be.)
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Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 12:27 pm
Damn. I wish I got laid as easy as you!
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 12:32 pm
slappy - you don't?
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Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 12:54 pm
Oh, um, I meant...too bad you don't get it as easy as me, yeah.

I'm not exactly in rough shape right now, but never got 6 numbers in two hours! You gay guys have it so damn easy, if you're just looking for sex.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 05:02 pm
I think that isn't an absolute truth. Gautam was not having an easy time of it in England where he lives. Istanbul, for him, has old friends with connections.....
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 05:09 pm
By the way I want to expand on what I said about guilt... I think it's silly and pointless that people should be made to feel guilty for being gay (or bi), but I know that they are. Don't want to imply that people in that situation are silly for feeling guilty.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 09:53 pm
G - I am so glad you met the man who got you to clear things with Petr.

I think it was likely a very good thing for him, but also wonderful for YOU - as you have been harbouring very negative thoughts about him.

As a sort-of-semi-demi-hemi-Buddhist, I can tell you that negative attcchments are BAD for you. As a sensible human being, I can tell you that carrying around hurt that makes you feel angry and hateful and generally yucky is bad for you.

I think you showed courage and compassion and good sense. I HATE feeling crappy about exes - it is a waste of time, and, in my view, dishonours the good things about the relationship that brought you together in the first place - and is a waste of good emotional energy - and is bad for you as a person. I mean, it is often inevitable for a while, but.....

If that be compromising your ego, then it is time to compromise it more.


As for the other......I think your poor lover has not been able to get past his social conditioning to view his position dispassionately, that's all, and is internalizing societal hatred - bet he externalizes it later, and tells himself that "he made me do it"! Prolly a real bummer for the poor chappy when you DIDN'T try to make him do it - since, if we wanna do something that makes us feel guilty, it is always easier if we can pretend we had less choice than we really did.

He is gonna be stuck as long as he both sticks to his religion and the surrounding straight cultural mores, and continues to have homosexual trysts.

So it goes. It is sad.
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the prince
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2003 06:57 am
Thanks guys - even I am amazed how good I feel after I have cleared up things with Petr. I don't know why I did not do it before. I also thinks that it will help me go forward in my current "relationship" (if I may call that), because now I am not carrying any negative emotional baggage.

Re the guy with the guilt feeling, I still am confused why that happened. The guy had obviously slept with men before (I can tell a novice Laughing), and he enjoyed everything while it was happening !!Yes, I agree that both muslim and turkish culture doesn't look very kindly towards gay men - but the large doses of guilt which that guy encountered left me completely baffled !!! I would have loved to understand why that happened, unfortunately I deleted his phone number the moment he left my room Sad
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2003 03:36 pm
A fetish of sorts?
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LibertyD
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2003 04:09 pm
I hope I'm not butting in here, since I don't know you Gautam, but I'm intrigued by the Turkish guy's guilt, too. Did you say he was married? Is he openly gay or is he typically in the closet?
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2003 06:21 pm
LibertyD - butting in? It's an open forum! I think we're all a bit captivated by this guilty-guy.
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LibertyD
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2003 08:01 pm
Smile yeah...it's strange and sad when people do that to themselves.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jun, 2003 08:36 pm
I don't think it's that uncommon, though. Certainly not unique to Turkey. America is rife with self-hating, closeted gay guys who are consumed with guilt every time they "give in". This is going by, what, Dan Savage ("Savage Love"), Armistead Maupin ("Tales of the City"), George Michael ("Wake Me Up Before you Go-Go"), more literature and articles I'm not remembering (lots of articles), and some people I know.
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2003 05:19 am
LIberyd, no u r not butting in - hey what better way to know a man than by jumping in in his conversation !! I have made some great friends this way (and in certain other ways, which I feel shy in describing)..

I had been thinking (something which I rarely do Wink ) abt Mr Guilty - and you knowwhat ? I really feel sorry for him. He is obviously gay - but if he keeps himself repressed like this - he will surely go mad one day !!!

Or maybe it was just a show for my benefit to let me know that he did not like me Laughing
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hiama
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2003 06:14 am
G me old mate-seems like you had a great time-thanks for sharing your exploits.

I agree with those before especially Sozobe-Guilt is a four letter word that's put on weight and become 5 !!- brought up as a catholic I could write a book on it-the best place for guilt is in the bin where it belongs.

As for the Mr Guilty its a tough life he has to learn to accept himself as he is-no one can do it for him.

Drop by the gym thread some time I'm just about to update it, I'm getting disgustingly fit- I am scaring myself !!
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2003 06:26 am
hiama, the best way to check yr muscles is to wear a tight t-shirt and drop in yr nearest friendly neighbourhood gay bar Laughing
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