Just curious

The last several post have propelled this thread to new heights, thank you. What I clumsily tried to convey in my opening dialog was the commonality of 'the speaker' to thought. Whether in ASL, Korean, English, or whatever language the thinker uses, the speaker translates instantly and with proper context.

I see where you are going Gelisgeti. Playing devil's avocado as usual, I have to ask...how can you be sure the thinker is more than the sum of his thoughts?

Reaction time can be measured, and is far from instant.

Diane,

Your observations are relevant to the idea of a multi-faceted "self" each facet reflecting "allegiance" to different speech communities. The Sapir Whorf hypothesis (that language influences/determines thought) may be useful in understanding this.

http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/short/whorf.html

Surely nuance, never the less, the thinker is the aggregate of his/her being. The speaker is the builder .... thought, the creator. The DNA present in every single cell is the driving force, existing to be changed.
To disambiguate, in totality, Dog.

These are my thoughts/theories ... hopefully for consummation without derision.

Gelisgeti, you know I question not to deride, but to learn, yeah?

Think 'prayer' ... something millions upon millions of people do each day.... all focusing on that little voice. Reading scripture, the Koran, any and all.
Think of a man named Hitler and what he did with that little voice and a thing called propaganda. Thought is the creator. "In my line of work you gotta keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kinda catapult the propaganda." - George W. Bush, May 24, 2005.
What ever we focus our little voice upon, we can, eventually accomplish. It sounds like religion but it is something much larger. DNA knows how to build us, we need to learn how to build or actually direct DNA.
Now reading it back, I feel foolish.

Fresco, with regard to your phrase--"the idea of a multi-faceted "self" each facet reflecting "allegiance" to different speech communities"--I recall a young man telling me quite ernestly that he "automatically" spoke and thought very differently when he was with a prostitute and when he was with a nun. I tried to hide my amusement as I asked him why he thought that was so. He answered insightfully: "I don't know but it's as if I am a different person with each of them."

Indeed, JL. Have we all felt that vague discomfort when you are with close family and you run into people from work? I think that comes form not quite knowing "who" to be in that situation.

Hmmm...

Hmmm?

JLN and Gelisgesti


There is no doubt that language, like clothes, functions as a political and social marker. With the "social self" concept these are embodied in our different personae over which we may have limited control as emplified by the phenomenon of "word magic" (....prayer....oratory.....hypnosis). "In the beginning was the word" may be more than a cryptic aphorism.

Fresco, the link you gave is helpful in understanding how language develops around culture. There is an example given of Pablo Neruda's unhappiness with the translation of his poetry into French:


This reminds me of Dys' experience. He lived in Saudi Arabia from the time he was three until 13, attending American University in Beirut (there were classes from kindergarten through post graduate studies). When he started high school in America, he had all sorts of difficulty because he had been used to conversing using many different languages. All the languages used by the students, meant they learned to use a word from one language, say Italian, and a word from another language, say Greek, in order to get just the meaning they wished to convey. These kids were fluent in several languages, even reading the Iliad in Greek.

When he started high school here in the States, he was teased unmercifully for his odd use of language. Naturally, he stopped using all those languages, trying to restrain his use to English in order to communicate. It wasn't long before he lost fluency in the other languages. Culture, especially for a shy teenager, is a profoundly powerful influence. What happened to his speaker? Did Dys do him in or move him to a less conspicuous place to avoid embarrassment?

Pablo Neruda was frustrated by the absence of meaning in French translations. Dys attempted using particular languages to express himself clearly. How much does culture count using language to convey basic meaning, versus the inability to express meaning and emotion in poetry? Am I even asking the right questions?

Now is the time for the brains to jump in. I feel myself sinking into an ocean of opposing currents.

JLN, I hope your friend never met me. Poor boy would have been very confused. [size=7]Just kidding.[/size]