25
   

FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 06:34 pm
fbaezer wrote:
First random, gut thoughts (not fbaezer's style), without enough reading done (not fabezer's style either).

The French made a big mistake.
The Dutch will make another one.
The Americans are joyful: a setback for the one superpower able to contend the US.


From the WSJ article posted above by HofT:

"The prevailing view among European elites was summed up by a senior EU bureaucrat we spoke to last month who said about the French and the constitution: "They haven't read it. If they had read it, they wouldn't understand it. If they understood it, they wouldn't like it." Nonetheless, he thought that the French should vote yes anyway."

Can you say 'contemptuous'? And this contempt is for his own contrymen.

The French, it seems to me, have much more important things to worry about than how Americans (or anyone else) views them.

"The haven't read it."
"If they had read it, they wouldn't understand it."
"If they understood it, they wouldn't like it."
"Nonetheless, he thought that the French should vote yes anyway."

Sheesh.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Tue 31 May, 2005 06:53 pm
l'boob.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 05:23 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Then it was no constitution at all - rather an entire structure of legal governance, filled with the inevitable contradictions and ambiguities, put out for acceptance or rejection in a plebiscite.

Yes, and that alone was reason enough to reject it. Not even a used car dealer could sell his vehicles under contracts this obcure and this small-print-ridden. Who in their right mind would buy a fundamental framework of governance on such terms? Oddly enough, Deutschlandfunk reported in its press review this morning that the general thrust of political commentary here in Germany tends to draw a different conclusion. Because the contract is so complicated, goes the argument, it was a mistake to let the matter be decided by incompetent voters, rather than competent governments. Oh well ...

As to your suggestion that a constitution worth adopting could be written in 20 pages, I recently discovered the The Economist's draft of 2000, and I kind of like it. The commented original is subscribers-only, but there is a copy-and-paste of it on usenet available here.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 05:37 am
Well that's interesting, and brief. I like it too.

Thank you, Thomas.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 06:04 am
Very interesting read. Thanks Thomas.

I do find the quintet of Commission, two Councils, Parliment, and Court of Justice a bit hard to grasp. I suspect the essence of all this is to create a system able to dance over time on the knife edge of equilibrium, neither dissolving into impotence, nor growing into absolute sovereignty. So far the EU has done all this reasonably well, but, as history shows, this can be a hard course. Built in contradictions often force their way to the fore, compelling resolution - as with the American Civil War.

There is no doubt that this or something like would be a far more suitable constitution for the union than what was put forward under d'Estang. I resolved my earlier doubts on the matter by telling myself that the EU had made this kind of patchwork thing work before, and had demonstrated its ability to use ambiguity and bureaucratic process to by time for the resolution of disagreements. True enough, but the French have reminded us that a toad is still a toad.
0 Replies
 
pwayfarer
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 07:01 am
Thanks for the link, HofT. Keep us posted on your travels.
Re your great quote: I discovered one day, long after my dog George died that he was, is and had been my guardian angel. Remind me to tell you about it when you get back.
Just wondering: what would the implications be to trading oil in Euros rather than dollars? Bet that would shake up the world economy.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 07:10 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I do find the quintet of Commission, two Councils, Parliment, and Court of Justice a bit hard to grasp. I suspect the essence of all this is to create a system able to dance over time on the knife edge of equilibrium, neither dissolving into impotence, nor growing into absolute sovereignty.




There's just one Council (the EU's the main decision-making body).

[The five EU institutions are:

European Parliament - (elected by the peoples of the Member States);
Council of the European Union - (representing the governments of the Member States);
European Commission - (driving force and executive body);
Court of Justice - (ensuring compliance with the law);
Court of Auditors - (controlling sound and lawful management of the EU budget).]
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 11:49 am
My rference above was to the U structure givn in the conomist draft that Thomas posted.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 01:13 pm
Well, by the time I finish typing this out there'll probably already be a result, but I still thought it might give an interesting insight in how it all came about. Its my translation from a report in the newspaper de Volkskrant about the live televised debate between the Dutch party chairmen of six of the parliamentary parties - three proponents of the Constitution, three opponents.

I'll also include the accompanying picture, just for you Brits and Americans to wonder at: yes, in Holland party leaders actually go in debate with each other (these are the party chairs, but with the general elections its the actual party leaders) - and its none of your 'he may talk three minutes, and then he may talk three minutes' stuff either, just live debate with the different guys asking each other questions, interrupting each other, reacting directly to each other. And each of them even gets to face off with one of the others in three parallel person-to-person debates, without moderation, as well. Ah ... democracy.

(And yes, with four to six participants in a typical debate, the leaders of the biggest parties do also deign themselves to debate those of parties with just 6 or 7%. In this case it was admittedly a little extreme: since there are so few actual parties formally opposed to the Constitution, the organisers had to revert to inviting even Andre Rouvoet of the Christian Union, which in the last elections got just 2% of the vote and 3 seats in parliament, to get the level playing field they wanted.)

http://www.volkskrant.nl/images/debat500.jpg
From left to right Verhagen (Christian-Democrats), Van Aartsen (VVD), Van As (List Pim Fortuyn), Bos (Labour), Van Bommel (Socialists) and Rouvoet (Christian Union).

Quote:
"Communists and racists won in France"

Volkskrant
31 May 2005
From our reporter Philippe Remarque

ROTTERDAM - "France", last night, dominated the debate between the party chairs about Europe. The smallest parties suddenly felt very big.

Whoever had feared that the Dutch Europe debate would deflate like a leaky balloon after the French no, is reassured in the aula of the Rotterdam Erasmus University. During the debate of party chairs of Two Today, France mostly just provides new ammunition. "It's exactly the electorate of your sister party that voted against", Socialist Party's Van Bommel [who opposes the Constitution] rubs it in, addressing Labour Party leader Wouter Bos [who supports it], referring to the dividedness of the French socialists.

Van Aartsen, chair of the [rightwing-liberal] VVD [which supports the Constitution], opts for the frontal attack. He starts about the red flags that the winners of the French referendum waved with, the same ones that the people of Eastern Europe have just freed themselves from. "The communists and the racists of Le Pen, those are the people who won yesterday", he says, raising his voice.

He is rebuked by loud booing from some of the students in the hall. "We should be talking about substance, mister Van Aartsen", Christian Union leader André Rouvoet [who opposes the Constitution] retorts. And "why do you lower yourself to this level?" asks a questioner from the audience. "I thought I could try", Van Aartsen afterwards says apologetically. He just feels especially involved when it comes to French affairs.

Van Aartsen does consider it a good thing that the Dutch, according to the polls that are available at the moment, aren't much influenced by France. "Otherwise you would be letting the French vote for the rest of Europe." That opinion does seem to be shared by the audience. "We do what we want", a student says firmly. The interest in this debate was greater among the students than that in the traditional debates of party leaders for the general elections.

On the stage, Bos, [Christian-Democratic chair] Verhagen and Van Aartsen represent the proponents and Van Bommel, Van As (List Pim Fortuyn) and Rouvoet the opponents, and they are exchanging by now familiar-sounding arguments.

Geert Wilders is the conspicuous absentee. That's because Van Aartsen didn't want to fend off against him, and he himself refused to accept Boris Dittrich, [leader of the much smaller] Democrats'66 as opponent. "He spoiled his chance, there", a Two Today editor says.

Eventually, it's the politician who, as party-leader of only the eighth-largest party, normally never gets to take part in the election debates who is voted best debater by a viewers panel: André Rouvoet, who this time uses his dignified sharpness against the European Constitution. [..]

Voted second was Harry van Bommel, also an opponent. Only in third place comes Wouter Bos, who nevertheless also gets lots of applause from the students. The drama that is looming over the "yes"-camp is echoed in this debate as well.

If it will indeed be a "no", "then the Netherlands will be left trying to arrange something in Europe still back from the childseat of the French bike", Van Aartsen warns still. But the other side is not impressed. "We are a representative through-cut of the Dutch population", Van Bommel says about himself and his two small-party fellow-opponents on his side of the stage. That sounds a little presumptious. But this week, there's little one can argue against it.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 01:21 pm
According to a first exit poll, the Dutch have rejected the European Constitution by a massive 63% against 37%. Turnout was unexpectedly high at 62%.

Respondents felt that it was Andre Rouvoet of the tiny Christian Union who best expressed what they felt about the subject, while almosthalf of the respondents said that Prime Minister Balkenende, a Christian-Democrat, "achieved the exact opposite of what he wanted to attain" during the campaign.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 01:52 pm
nimhster - No ""Lang Leve Nederland" ??

Did you vote absentee?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 02:01 pm
Initial reactions to the exit polls:

"Not a vote of great confidence in the EU"
- conservative VVD European spokesman

"I'm really fed up. We campaigned for a 'Yes', but didn't succeed"
- Femke Halsema, leader of the Green-Left party
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 02:04 pm
Results from a lot of smaller towns are already in; since understanding them doesn't require much Dutch I'll pass you a link. The numbers you're looking at are, from left to right, turnout, % "yes" and % "no". To go down the alphabet, use the > button.

As you'll see, it's been a positive, nationwide landslide for "No", with few exceptions.

Some examples:

In Appingedam, a rather poor town up in the traditionally red territory of North-East Groningen, 73% voted NO. But in Baarn, a wealthy town in the suburbian forests of the Utrecht Hills, 55% voted NO as well. However, in nearby Blaricum, which is the richest town of the country, the NOs have it by only the narrowest of margins: 51,5%. And other leafy, wealthy towns in the region like Bussum and Driebergen also show only narrow victories for NO; in Doorn there was even a majority for YES, and there was a YES in Haren, a plush suburb of Groningen, as well.

In Bunschoten on the other hand, one of those rather self-sufficient, ultra-protestant fishing towns, a massive 72% voted NO. That result is echoed in Volendam, where 62% voted NO, the Bible Belt's Elburg, where the NOs have it with 76% and the village of Goedereede in Protestant Zeeland, which voted NO by 79%.

Electorally more significant however is the way larger cities have turned against the Constitution. In Dordrecht, a full 67% voted NO. In Enschede, it was 63%. In Heerlen, a former mining city that politically switched from Catholic to Socialist in the seventies, the NOs have it by a massive 71%.

The traditionally "red" areas of the country played an important role as well, overwhelmingly ignoring the Labour Party's recommendation to vote in favour. In Reiderland in Northeast Groningen, the still-Communist stronghold I posted about earlier, a full 85% (!) voted NO.

By ways of exception again, in suburbian Abcoude the "yes"-voters have it by 52% to 48% - on a massive 73% turnout.

OK, gotta go ..
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 02:06 pm
An emergency parliamentary debate will be held on Thursday to discuss the outcome and consequences of today's referendum. However, no date has been announced for the official vote on the document itself.



The main Dutch political parties have indicated the following with regard to the outcome of the referendum

Christian Democrats (government party):
Will respect the outcome if turnout over 30 percent, and at least 55 percent majority either for or against

Conservative-liberals (government party):
Will respect the outcome irrespective of turnout/majority

Progressive liberals (government party):
Will, in principle, respect the outcome

Labour (main opposition party):
Will respect the outcome if turnout over 30 percent

Green-Left (opposition):
Will respect the outcome irrespective of turnout/majority

Socialist Party (opposition):
The SP is against the constitution but will vote for it if a majority of voters vote in favour


Source: Radio Nederland
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 02:24 pm
What would happen if the government says "yes?"
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 02:30 pm
Traditionally "red" cities seem to have voted much more strongly against the Constitution than (relatively) more conservative or liberal cities - though there is always a majority for the NO vote, so far without exception when it comes to cities of over 100,000 inhabitants.

Eg, Labour stronghold Zaanstad voted NO by a sweeping 69% and I've mentioned Dordrecht and Enschede already. In Catholic Eindhoven (57%) and Breda (56%), the majority was more modest but still clear, as it was in the relatively well-off university town Leiden (53%).

The victory for NO is so overwhelming we might still steal the spotlight from France after all. We outdid them. But no "Lang Leve Nederland" from me. I was in favour.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 02:50 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
What would happen if the government says "yes?"


Just another country would have voted for the EU constitution - you remember, c.i: ALL 25 members countries have to agree ....
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 02:53 pm
Well, and more of the same, with some twists.

Strictly Protestant Hendrik-Ido Abacht votes NO by 71%. Kampen, the seat of the Reformed-Protestant university, votes NO by 74% and the fishing town of Katwijk did so by 73%.

But the northern, labourist town of Hoogeveen also voted NO by 67%, and the former mining towns of Kerkrade and Landgraaf, Labour strongholds, did so by an imposing 72% and 71%.

In the wealthy, southern suburb Hilvarenbeek on the other hand, the NOs get it by only a hairbreadth, 50,9%. In Laren, another of the top-10 richest towns of the country, the YES vote wins quite handily, with 54% of the vote.

In relatively prosperous suburbs of the "Randstad", the agglomeration of cities in the West, the YES vote is also quite strong. In Leidschendam and Leiderdorp, situated between university town Leiden and The Hague, the governmental residence, the YES vote at least got 46% each.

In Lelystad, on the other hand, a relatively poor commuter city where many white working-class residents of Amsterdam moved, NO wins with 69%. Neighbouring city Almere voted NO by 70%. In Maassluis, which similarly houses many working class ex-Rotterdammers, NO wins with 66%. In Nieuwegein, which fulfills the same function for Utrecht, 65% voted NO.

In traditionally deep-red cities like Amsterdam, Nijmegen and Groningen however, the NO victory is much smaller. These are university cities: though they tend strongly leftwing, they also house many higher-educated folk. Students and graduates (who are more likely to favour the Constitution) obviously made a difference. In Amsterdam, NO "only" got 58%; in Nijmegen, 55%; in Groningen, 57%. This is much lower than in equally "red", but university-less cities like Zaanstad, Dordrecht and Enschede (Enschede only has a Technical University).

The southern, Catholic provinces also appear to show some of the better results for YES. The YES vote has it in the Limburg town of Margraten, if by a hairwidth. In Oisterwijk, YES at least got 48%.

I sure hope I'm not the only one fascinated by this kind of detail. To my mind, the socio-geopgraphy of the NO vote that shows up in these numbers speaks much more loudly than any number of long-winded, self-important editorials. It evokes a clear pattern.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 02:59 pm
Interesting, yes, and even I can detect the pattern of which you speak.

I'd be particularly interested in more exit-poll comments, though, such as the ones Walter posted earlier.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 1 Jun, 2005 03:55 pm
nimh wrote:
I sure hope I'm not the only one fascinated by this kind of detail. To my mind, the socio-geopgraphy of the NO vote that shows up in these numbers speaks much more loudly than any number of long-winded, self-important editorials. It evokes a clear pattern.

OK, I kind of obliged myself to follow up there, didnt I.

An article I'm also translating (or was, until the election results got in the way) still concerns the French referendum's results. I found it a real eye-opener, especially after all the talk (also from me) about the results in terms of left vs right, center vs extremes etc. Instead, says the article, we should see it simply - however anachronistic this may gonna sound - as good old fashioned class struggle. Very interesting. Will post later, but for now this key outtake:

Quote:

The Dutch local results that I've been spouting basically echo the French results, if with a cultural twist here and there. Workers voted NO. Intellectuals voted YES. The wealthy voted YES; so did liberal suburbanites. But common-folk in Labour strongholds voted NO, as did the communalist Protestant fishing towns and bible belt villages.

Now please allow me some broad-brush grandstanding. Because I think these referenda might signal nothing much less than a "Zeitwende", a turning point between eras.

They coincide with British elections in which Tony Blair did not win because, but in spite of his reformist, market-oriented self-delineation from the classic Labour Party. That party was (rightly or wrongly) symbolically represented by his rival Gordon Brown, who will probably soon take over. They also coincide with an electoral collapse of Gerhard Schroeder's "New Center" project in Germany, which had promised, way back in 1998, to take the SPD down a Blairite "Third Way". Instead, the centre-left is collapsing. A tough-minded Right is riding high now in Germany, while on the other hand a potential hard left party is promised a windfall in the polls even before its proposed constituent parts have gotten their act together.

In Holland, opinion polls have shown the centre-right government collapsing the past year or two. Attention was justifiably focused on the momentary, spectacular rise of the populist Geert Wilders and his one-man "Group", which stepped in Pim Fortuyn's anti-immigrant, anti-Islam shoes. But more consistent gains were made on the left - and ever less so by the socialdemocratic Labour Party and its reformist leader Wouter Bos, whose gains are now down to less than a handful seats. Instead, its far-left rival, the Socialist Party, is set to double its seats.

In case I havent lost you yet with all the details: the liberals - and I mean that both in the American and the European definition - are dead. Forget mere communitarianism; collectivism is back. We knew the stock of nationalism and xenophobic populism was rising. More astonishingly, it's an almost-forgotten old-fashioned socialism that's following its lead. The apparent upwind for the Christian Union may be a local thing, but neatly completes the picture. Whether classist, nationalist or religious, the collective is used as a shield against looming economic, cultural and social insecuritisation (Verunsicherung). The result will be a further resurgent polarisation - and a marginalisation of "enlightened" free-thinkers in both camps.

These will become tough times for postmaterialist Greens or wholly materialist free-market partisans. Thomas is cheering now, but he may come to regret it still. Myself, I've been more than exasperated with the mindless, egoist grabbing of the booming 1990s; how I hated the spoiled, resentful, fat-fed bunch the Dutch had become. And how I resented the way those wishy-washy socialdemocrats, pretty much everywhere, totally wasted the chance they got when they were elected back in office that decade: Bill Clinton and "four more years / of things not getting worse" (Steve Earle). I cant say I havent felt much like swinging back far to the left myself recently, especially as the grabbing was replaced by hatin'. But at the same time this whole, vaguely emerging prospect of resurgent polarisation, collectivism and populism fills me with a kind of still-undefined dread.

It may still all turn out differently. I realise how much of this sounds awfully like the late seventies, after all. Perhaps Sarkozy and Merkel will use the occasion to push the tide yet again in a different direction, like Thatcher did back then. In that case, Thomas will be right to cheer after all - and I will really be pissed.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

THE BRITISH THREAD II - Discussion by jespah
The United Kingdom's bye bye to Europe - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
Sinti and Roma: History repeating - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
[B]THE RED ROSE COUNTY[/B] - Discussion by Mathos
Leaving today for Europe - Discussion by cicerone imposter
So you think you know Europe? - Discussion by nimh
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 07/12/2025 at 06:02:11