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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 04:48 pm
Possibly so. However the delusion is the presumption that other countries will fall for that nonsense.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 04:58 pm
Like I said, if the Brit Referendum had taken place first....I am POSITIVE it would have been a resounding NO. Then all of the EU would have called us spoilsports again.

I wonder (and I'm being serious now) what the state of Germany would have been today, if they had implemented the same drastic changes as the UK has over the past decade or so.
The population would not have enjoyed it much.....god knows, we didnt, but I would bet that they would be a lot healthier, with a lot more people working.

Maybe I'm wrong.....any Germans out there wishing to comment?

Where are you when I need you Walter.? At this time of night (he's an hour ahead of me, and it's midnight here) he's probably dreaming of Frauleins, and who can blame him.
He can shoot me down in the morning.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 05:11 pm
LE, I believe your opinion about Germany is on the mark; their social benefit cost has escalated to the point where current workers cannot possibly support it, and they are aging. With their unemployment rate so high, with no young workers to maintian their economy, I'm not sure how they'll survive the next 20 to 30 years.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 06:51 pm
Will this report from BBC have any bearing?

"Germany 'set for early election'
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder says he wants a general election this autumn - a year early - after his party lost a key powerbase in local polls.

Mr Schroeder made the announcement after his Social Democrats (SPD) lost the state of North Rhine-Westphalia, which they had held for 39 years.

"The bitter result... jeopardizes the political basis for the continuation of our task," Mr Schroeder said.

The opposition had focused on the huge unemployment in the German state.

With five million unemployed across Germany as a whole, the general election may turn on the same issue, says the BBC's Ray Furlong in Berlin.


I think that for the reforms to be pursued, the majority of Germans must clearly back them now


The SPD is also lagging behind in national polls.

Mr Schroeder's Social Democrat-led government not only lost its traditional powerbase on Sunday, but it now has so few seats in the upper house of parliament that its ability to actively govern is massively diminished, our correspondent says."
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hamburger
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 08:02 pm
europe
ci.i. : see walter's comments re. ...GERMAN ELECTIONS....

since both mrs h and i are beneficiaries of the fairly generous german pension provisions - under an agreement between the canadian and german governments - we sure hope these benefits will continue for a looooong time. didn't get an increase last year, and probably not this year either, germany is pleading poverty, ha !

i think it's fair to say that the social benefits in germany were at least partly accumulated from 1945 on to well into the '50's when wages and benefits in germany were quite low, thus enabling german industry to grow rapidly. it was only in the mid '60's that wages and benefits started to rise; part of the german "wirtschaftswunder" (the time of rapid increase in german commerce - largely export driven). so we think we need not be ashamed for benefitting now from the profits that were made at that time. hbg
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 10:50 pm
Lord Ellpus wrote:

He can shoot me down in the morning.


I don't think that such could have happened then: even our Conservatives want to be (re-)elected.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 12:32 am
Quote:
The battle for Europe: France and Holland prepare to vote on constitution

As France and the Netherlands prepare to vote on the EU constitution, the 'yes' camps are lagging. Can they win through in the final few days?


By John Lichfield in Yutz, Lorraine
23 May 2005


Welcome to market day in Yutz, a small industrial town in Lorraine, close to the German border. Stalls are piled high with French cheeses, French sausages and Chinese T-shirts. Two Socialist campaigners for a "yes" vote in the referendum on the EU constitution cheerfully hand out leaflets. A tall man in his seventies, wearing a gaily coloured shirt, contemptuously pushes the leaflets aside. "You wait," he says, "until your job goes to a Pole or a Hindu ... You are a traitor. I hope you can sleep at night."

Lorraine was the seed-bed of the European dream; a province fought over for centuries, blood-soaked territory at the heart of the Franco-German reconciliation of the 1950s.

This part of Lorraine - Moselle - was the fiefdom of Robert Schuman, French foreign and prime minister in the late 1940s and a founding father of the EEC, the Common Market. Moselle, and Saarland across the border, were cornerstones of the Coal and Steel Community of 1950, the forerunner of the EU.

Here, of all places in France, you might expect to find the European ideal would be alive and well; that there would be a strong sense of European identity or allegiance. If so, think again.

Six days before next Sunday's French referendum on the EU constitution, Lorraine is bad-tempered, anguished, and above all confused, about the choices it must make.

Families are split down the middle; the political parties of the centre-left are torn apart.

In Lorraine, as in the wider France, polls suggest that electors could vote narrowly against the treaty. Polls also suggest the Dutch may reject the constitution three days later, for different reasons. The French campaign, in particular is being watched in Britain, and across Europe, with - depending on point of view - dread, puzzlement or anticipation. Whether you are pro or anti-European, French voters - specifically, a few thousand, volatile or undecided swing voters on the French centre-left - hold our future in their hands.

A French "no" would, in effect, wreck hopes of pushing the European project into a new phase: with more direct democratic control, a stronger foreign and defence policy and a simpler system of decision-making, to allow for last year's expansion to 25 nations, including eight from the former Communist bloc. Many people fear that a French "no" would unleash a cascade of rejections in other countries, which could destabilise, even unravel, the existing union, including the single European market.

"No" campaigners in France, on both the left and the right, say a rejection would allow the creation of a "different Europe". But what kind of Europe? How could anyone reconcile the desires of the French far-left for an anti-American, protectionist-welfarist Europe, and the yearning of the xenophobic far-right to return to the nation states of the 1930s and rebuild all the European frontier posts? Neither approach would appeal to the Dutch or British nor a majority of the 24 other nations in the EU.

Nevertheless, the most recent opinion poll in France yesterday showed a 52 per cent majority against the constitution: the sixth poll in a row to point to a "no". The Ifop poll for the Journal du Dimanche detected, however, a vague shift in opinion back towards the "oui". One in four likely voters remains undecided.

Over the next week, The Independent plans a "tour de France", to test the mood across the nation which was at the origins of the EU. For reasons of history and sociology, we chose to start in Lorraine. Thionville, Yutz and their surrounds are still partly German-speaking. They are heavily dependent on the 40,000 people who commute daily to jobs over the border in Luxembourg and Germany. Many on the French left challenge the whole basis - free trade and open competition between nations and companies - on which the EU has been built for the past 47 years. Where better then to start our tour than in a market in Lorraine? An old man wearing a clichéd black beret and carrying a plastic shopping bag, turned out to be a semi-retired priest, Père Gérard, 73. "When I was at school during the last war, I was taught German and English, not French. Between 1940 and 1944, this area was declared part of Nazi Germany and to speak French in Thionville was against the law," Père Gérard said.

"So of course, as a man of peace, and a child of the war generation, I will vote 'yes' next Sunday. The European Union has brought us 50 years of peace. It is now healing the terrible, unjust division in Europe between east and west.

"Of course I will vote 'yes'. But the younger people of Lorraine? I am not so sure."

Alain, 34, a man trying to sell wooden and straw chairs at €40 (£27) a time - no takers - was a definite "no". "Ever since we have had the euro, everyone goes to the big supermarkets," he said. "No one comes to a small market like this any more."

Other shoppers pointed to the rows of Chinese-made T-shirts and dresses on the racks. "Everything is upside down," one man said. "Who can you trust? I don't know who to believe any more."

A victory for the "no" camp will be presented as a popular revolt against the French "élite". There is some truth in this argument. The opinion polls show that the "no" voters - or "nonistes" - are heavily concentrated in the working class, among the less educated, in rural areas, in the deep south, and in the struggling former heavy industrial regions of the north and east, such as Moselle.

The pro-treaty forces - the "ouiistes" - are stronger in Paris, in the successful towns of the west and south-west, and among the professional classes.

There is a problem, however, with the "people versus the élite" argument. Each French government since 1981 has been accused of failing to deliver "change". Any government which has attempted to make even tentative reforms - like the present, hugely unpopular, centre-right government of Jean-Pierre Raffarin - has been destabilised by protests, supported directly or indirectly by a majority.

This obstructionism - on which the nonistes have skilfully drawn - is not just rooted in "despair" or failure: it is rooted in a corporatist defence of self-interest, especially in the huge French public sector on which 10 million people depend.

The referendum campaign has also tapped a deep well of Euro-scepticism and Euro-ignorance in France. The "yes" campaign has been mostly uninspiring, along the lines of "you have no choice". The French establishment has also paid the price for overselling the likely benefits of the euro - benefits, which, with 10 per cent unemployment, remain invisible to most.

At the same time, the nonistes of the left have cynically exploited the lack of Euro-knowledge to peddle a series of untruths about the treaty. The constitution, they say, would end the right of people to have abortions, get divorced, to separate state and religion and run farming co-operatives. All are nonsense.

The most successful distortion of all has been the drumbeat by the miserabilist far-left and anti-treaty centre-left, complaining the constitution is an "ultra-liberal", Anglo-Saxon, hard capitalist plot.

Almost all the evidence cited comes from treaty articles on competition and trade which have been copied out from the 1957 Treaty of Rome - a treaty which the "Anglo-Saxon" British refused to sign and which helped produce the French economic boom of the 1960s.

Bernard Tarillon, 52, a history and geography teacher and Socialist activist for the "yes" campaign, was one of the people handing out leaflets in Yutz market. He said he believed it was dawning on many of the centre-left that they were being tricked by the "no" camp. If they rejected the constitution, they would lose - perhaps forever - the language about a "social market", public services and human rights in parts one and two of the treaty.

The EU would then fall back on its existing treaties - exactly the commitments to "competition" and "free trade" which the leftish nonistes claim to have been shocked to find in the constitution's third section.

"I think that a breeze is starting to blow through people's minds," M. Tarillon said.

"Talking to opinion pollsters, they are lashing out, like the French do in the first round of a presidential election. Once they get into the polling booth, it will be like the second round. A sense of responsibility will come over them. They know that the whole of Europe is watching."

Maybe. Before leaving Lorraine, I spoke to one of Robert Schuman's former right-hand men, Jean Seitlinger, 80, a retired local MP. "I think that Schuman would have been very disappointed that, after half a century, the European idea has not penetrated deeper into people's minds," M. Seitlinger said.

"The old national hatreds have largely gone. We no longer fear a European civil war. But far from making people grateful for Europe, it has made them take it for granted."
Source
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 01:37 am
Walter, just an interesting note re. France's high unemployment.

My Brother started a Firm (with a French ex colleague as business Partner) in France about six years ago. They are Electricians, and work in an area just inside the French border, near Geneva.

The area is absolutely booming....new houses going up all over the place, wealthy Swiss buying cheaper French peoperties and renovating them etc.

Within Two years, it was obvious that my Brothers firm couldnt keep pace with demand, so they took on two Electricians as employees, and started an Apprentice.

Now, with the new working hours directives, and other workers rights/benefits that have been introduced by the EU, my brother would dearly love to take on another three or four men, but cannot afford to do so.
He has calculated that, after adding on all of the extra "built in" costs (pension contributions, guaranteed minimum redundancy if ever they had to lay them off, etc)...it would work out that you would almost have to double the amount that you pay a worker in wages, to arrive at the final cost of that worker.
He has had unemployed Electricians asking him to pay them unofficially, as they need the work. He refuses to do this, as he doesnt want to be prosecuted.
Yet, if the employer/employee regulations were more flexible, he estimates that he could realistically have taken on another three or four employees over the past couple of years. He has work coming out of his ears, and cant keep up with it!!
Do you think that France's unemployment problem is somewhat of their own making, due to their (the EU) restrictive working practises?
It seems silly to me, to have workers asking for jobs, but employers afraid to take them on because of the potential cost liability.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 02:12 am
Actually, France always had have (before those EU regulations) one of the best labour laws in Europe, especially six years ago, as far as I remember.

(Only then, not ,any employer were regarding the [existing French] law, especially, if unions weren't concerned.)
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 05:28 am
I found John Lichfield's article, posted by Walter, quite interesting.

Apparently the polls in France continue to show a nearly constant 52% No and 48% Yes divide among the electorate. Francis has suggested there will be a late shift towards Yes among the voters, and Lichfield referred to this expected phenomenon as well. I also expect this to happen, although the hour is getting late and the symptoms of it have not yet appeared - will it be enough?

The anxieties and concerns cited in the article are not unique to Europe, though the intensity of the concern and the actual stakes there, particularly relating to social welfare programs are greater than here. The world remains a competitive place, no matter that we might wish it otherwise. I believe it is a delusion to suppose that the major states of continental Europe can continue their social welfare programs and highly regulated labor markets in the face of world competition, whether they are united in an EU or not. It would be a mistake to reject the EU on that basis - the economic outcome will be affected by the same forces with or without an EU constitution.

In the U.S. our labor markets are much less regulated and more flexible, however we too feel the stresses of Asian competition in manufacturing and even services. Our debate over similar needed reforms in our Social Security pension system has all the features of denial and obstructionism that have been cited in Europe. No one is immune to these competitive forces.

The Western world has been on top for a long time. Now it faces serious economic competitive challenges from about 3 billion people in Asian countries whose economies are rapidly ascending from the poverty that has gripped them for centuries. At the same time we face a reactionary social and cultural challenge from an Islamic world that is consumed with anger and frustration, but which has not yet found its own way to deal with either itself or the modern world. What to do?

My prescription is to rejoice in the economic ascent of Asia, brace ourselves and compete with them in free markets, counting on the internal social and political effects of wealth to bring them closer to us in social and political policy and development. We can already see these forces at work and the rapid change they can bring. With respect to the Islamic world, I believe we must resist them until they come to grips with their own internal cultural and political contradictions.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 06:55 am
I certainly agree with you George, regarding the emergence of the "Tiger economy".
There has already been a BBC "Questiontime" programme from China, broadcast live, from Shanghai (I believe). Now, if you dont know what this programme is all about, let me tell you.....it is a question and answer session, with a panel of politicians and business people, answering often tricky questions raised by the Studio audience.
There were two top Chinese Politicians forming part of the Panel, and at times, they were squirming as they tried to answer questions regarding Human Rights, and abuses within their Prisons (political prisoners etc).
For such a Programme to be aired "Live" from China, this is a stupendous step forward, and if it carries on in this vein (there are future programmes in the pipeline), it is very encouraging for the future of its people.
I believe that the leaders of China are serious about entering the modern world, but it will take a VERY long time to throw off the old habits from the Mao era. Let's hope they make it one day, for the sake of its people.
But as they gear up to compete with the West, we had better be ready for some serious re-thinking with regards to how we can keep our markets once they become fully fledged. The effects are already being witnessed, and like they say, "you ain't seen nothing yet!"
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 07:14 am
I agree. The hell of it is that wealth will indeed inevitably flow from the West to the East as all this occurs. However, as history has repeatedly shown, if we are wise enough to avoid the futile attempt at building ever-higher protectionist barriers, and instead restructure and compete, the economic pie will get bigger yielding more for us despite a perhaps smaller relative share.

A complicating factor is the distemper of the Moslem world. A part of their frustration is that they are being left behind by the rapid development of Asia. Despite this, for (often excellent) historical reasons their anger and frustration is directed at the West, not Asia. We should resist them until they come to grip with their own contradictions and avoid letting them export their troubles and contradictions to us in a flood of immigration.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 10:09 am
China has many internal problems besides human rights violations. Their workers are paid very low wages to continue their economic expansion, and they are beginning to realize the 'sacrifice' they are making as their government continues to devalue their currency against others in the world markets. There have been some uprising in China against the government, especially in the south in recent years. It'll be interesting to watch how the Chinese government continues to expand capitalism while restricting the benefits for its people.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 12:11 pm
C.I. wrote : " Their workers are paid very low wages to continue their economic expansion, and they are beginning to realize the 'sacrifice' they are making as their government continues to devalue their currency against others in the world markets. "

that sounds somewhat like germany from may 1945 to 1948, when the currency reform took place. from 1945 to 1948 the regular salaries/wages bought very little. rents and prices of goods were controlled, and of course there was "rationing". when the currency reform took place, pretty well overnight stores were filled with goods that previously people could only have dreamed of. of course the "old" german mark was taken out of circulation and everyone was given a sum of the "new" deutschmark - i believe we all
received 200 deutschmark. if you had any money in a savings-account you were allowed to exchange an additional small sum - another 200 marks i believe - the rest was GONE , goodbye, never to be seen again ! even insurance contracts were declared null and void. i recall that my parents had bought small insurance contracts for me and my brother - to be paid at age 18 . the certificate was only useful as wallpaper !

the advantage was that business could start with a clean slate, and this exercise - the currency reform/devaluation - later developed in the german boom (the "wirtschaftswunder" of the 1960's). hbg
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 12:46 pm
hbg, I'm surprised Germany was able to climb out of their grave after so many lost their money, because it takes 'investment' for any economy to expand.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 12:52 pm
Everyone got 60 Marks in 1948, 40 had to be spent at once, the other 20 within a couple of weeks (changing Reichsmark in Deutsche Mark 1:1).

Later, you just got between 1/5 and 1/16 of the old Reichsmark in Deutsche Mark (I don't know, how this was calcutated, but it must have been a difficult procedure).

[Since my father just returned in those days from POW camp in France, he actually didn't get more than the 50 DM, since he didn't posses any Reichsmark anymore..]
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hamburger
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 01:18 pm
walter : thanks ! can't rely on my memory alone ; it's getting a little (?) rusty .
i seem to recall (there i go again !) that there was a limit on the amount of "old" reichsmark that could be exchanged for the new "deutschmark". i believe the limit was set to prevent blackmarket profits from being exchanged into the new "deutschmark" without limitation. i do remember -for sure ??? - that my parents had "old" marks left over that they could not exchange.

c.i. : since any able person had to work from 1945 to 1948 to be able to get ration coupons, the employers(particularly large corporations in the export business) were able to accumulate a rather nice surplus in foreign currency.
here is a simplified version of how it worked :
1) employee had to work and would be paid in old marks - they could not be exchanged into foreign currency; they were good only in germany and enough was printed to keep the economy - such as it was - going,
2)the business would sell its goods - if possible - on the worldmarket for dollars, pounds etc
3)businesses could accumulate foreign currencies or buy goods to expand their business on the worldmarket; i would say this probably the period from 1946 on, 1945 was a washout,
4)when the currency reform took place in 1948 many business had either accumulated foreign currencies or had stocked up on goods, so when the new "deutschmark" appeared , stores quickly filled with bicycles, suits, shoes etc; it was really an amazing transformation.

i'm sure my memory has become somewhat clouded over time, but i certainly remember that when the new money was issued - i was employed as an apprentice for the princely pay of 40 deutschmark a month - i was able to buy some good chocolate for my mother on pay day - and a beer for myself ! those were "glorious" days ! hbg
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 01:41 pm
hbg, Those were the "glorious days" because we lived through some hardships to appreciate what we now have. If I had my druthers, I wouldn't have it any other way; it was the only thing that motivated me to better myself.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 03:35 pm
c.i. : "glorious days " , isn't nostalgia wonderful ?

here is how i "profited" from the german currency reform. since i had started collecting stamps when i was about seven years old, i knew that when the german currency reform took place in 1923 the post-office allowed the use of old stamps (10 old MILLIARDS equalled 1 new pfennig - or cent !) for a short while after the currency reform. i also knew that the envelopes franked in such way had become quite valuable - they now sell for thousands of euros.
so when the german post-office announced in 1948 that for 24 hours after the currency reform the use of the old stamps was allowed (at 1/10 th value), i rushed to the night-postoffice at the hamburg railway station and mailed three registered letters to myself on the day of the currency reform. i still have those letters and they have become quite valuable. i should sell them ... but sentimental value has no price ... yet . hbg

btw do we have a thread for stamp-collectors ; have not come acros one yet.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2005 03:42 pm
For our good friend, Hamburger:

Philately


. . . unfortunately, i have nothing useful to add to that thread, but perhaps others will show up.
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