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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 12:30 am
ConstitutionalGirl wrote:
I saw your advirtisement Francis, your not that good looking, like Walter thinks you are, I still say the other guy is better looking.


What are you talking about?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 12:49 am
To be honest:
I never think that men look good.
Francis was well dressed, when I met him, but this - here and now - is the very first time I said/wrote such.

However, CG is always good for some confusion. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 12:51 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
However, CG is always good for some confusion. Laughing


Must be that! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 12:55 am
Quote:
In the footsteps of Fortuyn

Geert Wilders, the scourge of Dutch liberalism, is determined to make race the key issue in the EU referendum campaign. Stephen Castle meets a politician with a price on his head

20 May 2005


He has spent months sleeping behind bars in a former army camp, travels in an armour-plated car and has up to six bodyguards. The Netherlands' most controversial and vocal critic of Islam has been in hiding since receiving dozens of death threats, including one offering 72 virgins in paradise to any Muslim who beheads him.

But, to the alarm of many Dutch liberals, Geert Wilders is back, just in time for a referendum that has implications for the whole of Europe. Although for security reasons details are vague, Holland's newest, anti-immigration populist will probably use his home town of Venlo to start a national tour promoting a "no" vote in the Dutch poll on the European constitution.

The referendum - the first in the Netherlands for 200 years - will take place on 1 June, just three days after a likely knife-edge vote in France. If both countries reject the treaty, it will become a dead letter.

Three years after Pim Fortuyn, the anti-immigration campaigner, was gunned down and six months after the murder of Theo Van Gogh, another outspoken critic of Islam, Mr Wilders wants race to dominate the campaign.

In an spacious meeting room in the heart of The Hague, the press conference to launch the comeback seems like any other low-key meeting in the Dutch parliament. Only the two bodyguards - the Wilders team calls them gorillas - hint at the fact that this is Holland's best-protected man, staying by his side even in these secure surroundings. With his youthful features and white hair, Mr Wilders, 41, cuts an unusual figure, his hairdo probably styled on that of Bill Clinton but more reminiscent of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

He is sitting in front of two large posters bearing his own image and in front of another banner with the name of his party: Groep Wilders. If ever there were a one-man band, this is it. Joining the group could get you on a death list, so potential supporters are invited to make anonymous donations instead. The press officer does not want to be named in print or to give out his mobile phone number.

Mr Wilders has spent much of the past few months sleeping in a barred room at Camp Zeist, the former army barracks which was used for the Lockerbie trial, seeing his wife only a couple of times a week. Although he is no longer sleeping behind bars, he says: "My security situation has not changed, not for the better anyway. But I am a politician. That is why I insisted on having a bus tour throughout every province of the Netherlands."

Much of the cost of the event will be met from public funds with €40,000 (£27,500) coming from a €1m pot earmarked to the "yes" and "no" campaigns.

Some of his message would be familiar to British Eurosceptics. The EU, Mr Wilders says, is on the way to becoming an "inefficient superstate", manipulated by "Brussels cliques"; the Wilders plan is to "reduce its talks by 90 per cent so we can reduce our contributions by 90 per cent". His slogan "The Netherlands should stay" is artful; a statement with which no Dutch citizen could disagree, it suggests that the European constitution poses a sinister, but undefined, threat. Meanwhile it hints at his other main theme: the fear of being swamped by immigrants.

Mr Wilders has described Islam as a "backward" religion incompatible with democracy and split with his previous party, the VVD centre-right liberals, over their failure to oppose Turkish accession to the EU.

Though there is no non-white face at this press conference, the issue of race dominates proceedings. Asylum and immigration policy forms only a tiny part of the European constitution, and Turkish accession is not addressed, but Mr Wilders thinks they will be decisive.

"This referendum is about sovereignty and immigration", he says. His argument is that the constitution apportions voting weight in part according to nation's populations, thereby making Turkey potentially the most powerful nation in the EU.

Unlike the UK, the Netherlands has no opt out from justice and home affairs policies and will lose its veto in several areas. This, Mr Wilders says, means that the Dutch could be forced to give legal status to illegal immigrants - to adopt the "terrible policies" of countries such as Spain.

The argument is emotive, almost certainly incorrect and based on a scenario which is politically inconceivable. But simplistic messages work.

Mr Wilders wants to halt all immigration from non-Western countries completely for five years, set strict quotas for asylum-seekers, and to offer financial incentives for non-white immigrants to go home. "In Britain your Conservatives lost the election because they didn't use immigration enough," Mr Wilders tells The Independent.

How has a maverick such as Mr Wilders come to exercise such influence in a country once a model of tolerance and political correctness?

For years Holland was governed under the so-called "polder model" with differences submerged as consensual coalition government did deals with unions and other interest groups. While this delivered wealth it also denied voters real choice, a deficiency exploited by Mr Fortuyn, a maverick gay academic turned politician. Mr Fortuyn derided Islam as a backward religion for its demonisation of homosexuality and called for immigration to stop under the slogan "the Netherlands is full".

Three years ago this month Pim Fortuyn was shot dead outside a radio station by a white animal rights activist, his death sparking an extraordinary outpouring of public emotion.

After Fortuyn's assassination, his political party became the second largest force in Dutch politics, though it soon collapsed, leaderless, back into relative obscurity.

Then last year came another equally shocking murder - that of Theo Van Gogh, a descendant of the painter and a professional controversialist. The Dutch are renowned for their plain speaking but even by their standards, Mr Van Gogh's language was extreme. He once called Muslims "goat fuckers" in print. But it was his film Submission, chronicling the abuse of women under Islam, that provided the pretext for his grisly murder. This crime, committed in broad daylight in Amsterdam, provoked more repulsion, particularly when it was revealed that a letter explaining the murder had been impaled with knives on his chest.

Lousewies van der Laan, an MP for the liberal Democraten 66 (D66) Party, argues that beneath the surface social and economic changes have bred massive uncertainty. "People have had to get used to so many different aspects of globalisation. Five years ago police didn't carry guns. Now there have been two political murders. It all adds up to new insecurities," she argues.

While Dutch attitudes to multiculturalism have shifted, so too has enthusiasm for the EU. In Brussels officials hark back to the days when the Netherlands, one of the EU's six founders, was a solid proponent of European integration. Now its position at the negotiating table is unpredictable because its internal politics are so volatile. The Dutch resent their status as the highest net contributors per head to the EU. They have been infuriated by the row over the euro's rule book, the so-called stability and growth pact; while the Dutch obeyed the pact, the Germans and French ignored it and got away with it, giving the impression that large and small nations play by different rules.

How this will impact on the referendum remains unclear. The "no" campaign in the Netherlands is deeply fragmented. Most opponents of the constitution come from the far left and argue that the document enshrines free-market values that undermine the European social model. They want nothing to do with Mr Wilders.

The "yes" campaign has big problems too. The Socialist Party backs the constitution but is wary of being too closely identified with the campaign for fear of being associated with a losing endeavour. They do not want to be tarred with the same brush as Jan Peter Balkenende, the Christian Democrat Prime Minister. Last week the government released its first official poll predicting "no", with 40 per cent opposed to the constitution and 35 per cent in favour. This has spread alarm among ministers.

Ms Van der Laan, a prominent "yes" campaigner, points out that a large percentage of the electorate remains undecided. He says: "It is the first referendum in 200 years and everything that can go wrong with a referendum will go wrong. Rather than voting on the constitution people will vote on Turkey's entry to the EU, the Dutch contribution to the EU - which everyone knows ours is the highest per capita. They may also protest over the introduction of the euro, which, because the guilder was undervalued, created inflation, and register discontent with the government."

Sitting at a café table opposite the parliament, Bart Woord, takes a series of calls on his mobile phone, gleaning snippets of intelligence about Mr Wilders' tour. Today he plans to trail the maverick anti-immigration campaigner in a caravan, spreading the pro-European message. Mr Woord, the vice-president of the Jonge Democraten, describes Mr Wilders as a "polarising" influence "focusing on fear about the loss of sovereignty and fear that there are more immigrants". He adds: "We are worried that people will use the wrong arguments and say 'no'."

Mr Woord then pays his opponent an unexpected compliment, contrasting his willingness to tour the country - while under a death threat - to the apathy of many politicians advocating a "yes". "Sometimes," says Mr Woord, "I feel a little alone, a bit of a voice in the desert." Never has there been a more urgent case for the "yes" campaign to get out and make a case which has largely gone by default. With three weeks to go, the pro-Europeans have been warned that they have a lot of work yet to do to avert an upset in a country that once backed European integration by instinct.

Ms Van der Laan argues: "I hold the politicians of the past to blame. You have to explain what you are doing and why. You can't just write a constitution - you have to sell it. A lot of people want to teach a lesson to those arrogant politicians. On Europe, four decades of maintenance has not been done. This train was running for 40 years and now we are asking people to hop on board. Instead people are looking for the emergency break because they don't know where it is going."
Source
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 02:39 am
I was in Sluis recently. Delightful place. Hard to reconcile with all the tensions in Dutch society.

[There is a cafe/bar there on one side called 'Drinckery' which we thought was funny, but on the other side 'Eateryee' which was actually Dutch for "we can speak english perfectly well but we thought we would have a laugh at the tourists"].

Regarding race/immigration/Islam etc. I'm not a racist but I do think there is a limit to how many newcomers any society can assimilate. Regarding religion people should be free to believe what they want, and others free to criticise those beliefs without the threat of being beheaded.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 04:48 am
This glimpse of life in Arizona near the Mexico border may be relevant to the Dutch political campaign:
____________________________________________________________

"....These border residents are routinely snickered at and called racist vigilantes. But most are decent folks caught up in the daily invasion of illegals who tramp across their land. Ranchers in hard-hit areas spend the first hours of every day repairing damage done the night before. They find fences knocked down and water spigots left on, draining thousands of precious gallons. And then there's the trash: pill bottles, syringes, used needles, and pile after pile of human feces.

Sometimes illegals hammer on residents' windows in the middle of the night, demanding to use the phone. Some even walk right into the ranch house and refuse to leave until the rancher pulls a gun and forces the issue. One rancher told me about illegals who rustled one of her newborn calves. The intruders beat the 12-hour-old animal to death with a fence post, then barbecued it on the spot.

How bad is it? In the Tucson Sector alone in January 2005, the Border Patrol arrested 35,704 people, seized 34,864 pounds of marijuana, and impounded 557 smuggling vehicles. In one month. High-speed chases and accidents on our back-roads are now common. Residents know to stay off certain roads at night because the smugglers--of people and drugs--own them, and if you're not careful they'll come around a bend at 100 mph and run you into a ditch or worse...."
_____________________________________________________________
From today's Wall Street Journal:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/cc/?id=110006707

I hope the esprit frondeur prevails in France and that monstrous compilation of legalese known as the EU Constitution is decisively rejected by the voters. Btw, its main author, Giscard d'Estaing, publicly regretted not including wording designed to permanently exclude Turkey and other non-European countries.

Learn from the Arizona example - if that "constitution" becomes law in the EU your residents will have no choice but to take up arms <G>
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 10:11 am
Quote:
In the footsteps of Fortuyn

[..] The "no" campaign in the Netherlands is deeply fragmented. Most opponents of the constitution come from the far left and argue that the document enshrines free-market values that undermine the European social model. [..]

The "yes" campaign has big problems too. The Socialist Party backs the constitution but is wary of being too closely identified with the campaign for fear of being associated with a losing endeavour. They do not want to be tarred with the same brush as Jan Peter Balkenende, the Christian Democrat Prime Minister.

Just a quick correction: the Socialist Party does not in the least back the constitution; in fact it very actively spearheads the above-mentioned mentioned far left's campaign against it.

Possibly the author meant the Labour Party.

Quote:
Ms Van der Laan, a prominent "yes" campaigner, points out that a large percentage of the electorate remains undecided. He says:

And "Ms Van der Laan" of course is a "she" Razz
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 10:50 am
Ah - found that poll that JustWonders heard about last week. They've got a new one out now. It's still spectacularly out of sync with the other ones, showing an equally spectacular lead for the no-vote. Its done by NIPO, on behalf of the RTL4 news.

This time it found that 40% of those eligible to vote say they're certain to come out, and of that number, 54% is against the Constitution and a paltry 27% for. "Of the no-voters 58% votes against the constitution out of protest against the [centre-right] Balkenende government. The expensive euro is also reason for a no-vote."

The problem with the yes-camp seems to be primarily a lack of conviction, meaning few of their numbers are fired up enough to say they're certain to come out for the vote. The lower the turnout, thus, the smaller the chance the Constitution will be adopted.

What's that famous quote again? Those who ... lack all conviction, while those with conviction ... Anyone remember?
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 12:57 pm
It's not that I wish to encourage sufferers of pathological logorrhea in their delusions - I just like Yeats and hope the person will stop typing long enough to reflect on the poem he's attempting to quote:
____________________________________________________________

The Second Coming
by William Butler Yeats


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.


Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight:somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?



___________________________________________________________
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 02:20 pm
Well, Helen, as long as Yeats is the theme, this might be an equally useful homily for the leaders of Europe

Get all the gold and silver that you can,
Satisfy ambition, animate
The trivial days and ram them with the sun,
And yet upon these maxims meditate:
All women dote upon an idle man
Although their children need a rich estate;
No man has ever lived that had enough
Of children's gratitude or woman's love.

No longer in Lethean foliage caught
Begin the preparation for your death
And from the fortieth winter by that thought
Test every work of intellect or faith,
And everything that your own hands have wrought
And call those works extravagance of breath
That are not suited for such men as come
proud, open-eyed and laughing to the tomb.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 02:32 pm
Thank you for bringing up the quote in context, HoT - I am grateful enough to take the usual snideties that accompanied it in my stride (smiles)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 02:35 pm
I think Nimh is cool. Informative and never tiresome.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 03:15 pm
Well, thankee! I think you're pretty cool too. Erudite and always courteous. (bows)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 20 May, 2005 03:17 pm
I cant believe George and I just called each other "cool" (giggles)



(and yes I know it's really "chuckles", but I've come to be the guy who giggles here, so thats OK)
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Sat 21 May, 2005 05:19 pm
LONDON - The European Union's first ever constitution cannot be re-negotiated if French voters reject the document in a referendum, former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing said Thursday.

Giscard d'Estaing, who chaired the convention which drafted the constitution, described re-negotiation of the treaty as "impossible" and said there was no "plan B."

"There is absolutely no opening for that. What do you want to re-negotiate? We had a long negotiation. The convention first, where you could express all your demands, and then intergovernmental negotiation for one full year," he told British Broadcasting Corp. radio.

Polls have consistently shown that France is split down the middle over how to vote in its widely watched referendum on May 29. Surveys have also shown many French opponents believe it is possible to draft a better constitution, and hope to send the message that they want leaders to return to the drawing board.

Campaigners have not cleared up the confusion. French President Jacques Chirac has warned that there is no chance the treaty could be re-negotiated if France votes "no." However former Prime Minister Laurent Fabius, a leading opponent and the No. 2 Socialist Party official, insisted on French television over the weekend, saying that a re-negotiation was possible.

Giscard d'Estaing said re-negotiation would be a "useless and nonproductive confrontation" and added, "I think for a long while nothing could be done.

Prime Minister Tony Blair's government, which has also pledged to hold a referendum on the treaty, will closely watch the French result.

Britain insists it will hold a referendum regardless of how votes turn out in other European countries. It hasn't set a date for a referendum, however, and has sent mixed messages about the implications of France's rejecting the treaty.

Blair suggested last month that a French rejection could scuttle the constitution and make a British vote pointless.

"If there is still a constitution there has got to be a referendum on it," he said last month. "If what was to happen was France was to say 'no' and then the rest of Europe were to tear up the constitution and say 'we're forgetting about it,' you wouldn't have a referendum on nothing."

Blair's Europe Minister, Douglas Alexander, said Thursday that the impact of a "No" vote would have to be considered by the European Council.

If approved in all 25 EU nations, the constitution will create an EU foreign minister and provide new voting rules to accelerate decision-making. It will end national vetoes in new policy areas, including law-enforcement cooperation, education and economic policy, while preserving unanimity voting on foreign and defense policy, social security, taxation and culture.

Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 01:19 am
Quote:
Why a 'Oui' Is Not Enough Garten is dean of the Yale School of Management
Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 01:34 am
Quote:
Unexpected Baby Boom

What can Europe learn from the 'exception francaise'?
Source
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 08:26 am
Interesting articles posted above.

It is only natural for Giscard, Chirac and other supporters of the constitution to declare there are no alternatives to it, and to stick to that proposition right up until the votes are cast. If the result of the French referendum is a rejection of the constitution, I am confident that after a period of reflection and adjustment there will be a second attempt.

I believe Jeffrey Garten has accurately stated the economic and social challenges facing Europe, but has exaggerated their severity a bit, perhaps for rhetorical effect. The challenges are indeed serious, but people and nations do adapt when such things become severe.

Eric Pape's piece on the resurgent fertility among the French would have been better if he had included some hard data. For well over a decade France has led the major nations of Western europe in female fertility with rates between 1.8 and 1.87 births per female. That is much higher than the rates of 1.4 to 1.5 that prevail throughout most of continental Europe from Spain to Russia. However it is also much lower that the 2.05 rate required to maintain an equilibrium population. Moreover, because of past low birth rates the fraction of the population in childbearing years is itself already depressed, France will have to elevate its birth rate likely much more than already done and hold it there for some time to counter the demographic forces already at work. Spain, Italy, Germany, and Russia may be approaching the point of irreversibility in their declines.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 10:08 am
My first impression of the article that I posted above is that D'Estaing was 'threatening' the no-voters by saying re-negotiation wasn't possible. Kind of a "it's now or never" approach. (Either that or he has a heck of a large ego).

Doesn't this strike anyone else as nonsense? Everything is re-negotiable. Even our constitution has amendments.

So, I wonder if it will work on the voters. Any thoughts?

nimh - did you see this quote in the Beeb's article that referenced the Dutch poll?

"The Dutch vote is purely consultative, but politicians have said they will take the result into consideration when it comes to a parliamentary vote."

Shocked
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2005 11:06 am
At this mement in the voting process for the EU constitution, it seems it's between France and the UK to toss some mud into the gears. That is surprising in and of itself, because with 25 different countries needed to accept this constitution, that's a big hurdle for all concerned. How much each country is willing to accede to the EU rules and regulations is the big question.
0 Replies
 
 

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