FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

HOW MUCH were you betting, exactly, Mr. Baezer? I'm only asking because you just lost that bet, demonstrably and unquestionably, and I'd appreciate collecting the wager at your earliest convenience - though honesty on ANY subject isn't habitually to be obtained from leftists, I share the fundamental American trait of optimism, so look forward to your reply, with a number and a currency denomination attached to it

That probably wont make much of an impression, because High Seas seems to actually like much of this far, far right...

Impression? Neh, Herr Nimh, das geht ueberhaupt nicht - we go by numbers here, not "impressions", and the numbers are overwhelmingly in our favor. You knew that, even if your associated leftwinger had to explain it. Good to see you posting again, btw

A cogent and comprehensive summary. Of course, true to his nationalist Dutch resentments, nimh discusses almost every country in Europe except the greatest one there is. Goes to show y'all just how fragmented Europe really is.

Haben Sie die Vernunft total verloren, Thomas? Offensichtlich. Und leider. Stop this commentary on matters you know nothing about, at any rate - such as what former President Bush MIGHT have done (let alone what current President WILL do - what are you, a telepathic prophet?) about attacking Iran: he was not going to do any such thing, on recommendation of JCS chairman General Pace. ALL military in the US advised AGAINST such folly, so unless you got some new info (from where?) please keep quiet.

Enough with uneducated wild guesses - from persons who SHOULD know to at least CHECK.

Frau Seas is in fighting spirit, I see

Ihre treu ergebene

Not true Francis. I'm usually quite restrained (at least relative to my "true potential"). However, you know that I am not a hater.

I read Nim's piece - very clear: well done. Though I can't prove it, I strongly suspect there is some truth to my surmise that, to some significant degree, the result reflects not only the dissatisfaction with the long-established social democrat/leftist parties, as Nimh so well described it; but also some similar dissatisfaction with an EU apparatus which has a growing influence on the daily lives of people, but which appears to me to be deficient in the area of real democratic connection with the people - notwithstanding the 700 member parliament that, as Nimh described, has a permanent standing majority that ignores the passing fashions of the electorate.

All of this, both in the U.S. and Europe chiefly represents the cyclical nature of democratic politics plus some underlying secular trends that may be revealed only after a long time has passed. It is interesting that we are so out of phase with each other in these cycles - at least in this decade.

It's not the end of the world, and nimh's depression will surely fade. However, European Social Democrats, just as American Republicans, would do well to listen to the voice of the people.

Perhaps "I bet" has a different connotation in Latin America, and the words "how much" don't apply..... In any event, voters in Europe could count:

from new issue of The Economist, both picture and chart:

This is something I've great difficulties with.

As a party (and I think, European parties differ here a lot to what the US political parties are alike) you have a program, based on some principles.
This certainly can be changed - but not to simple populist reasons, to get votes.
(That's one of the reasons why I stopped being active in our politics but engaged more with the Fabian Society instead.)

I disagree Walter (and agree with georgeob1 this time): one thing is to stick to principles and not just go with the evermoving flux of public opinion -which is good-, and another is to go stale with formulas that don't work that well anymore.
There has not been a European response to the economic crisis, and Socialists and Socialdemocrats should be the first ones to acknowledge that the last time depression hit their continent, the far right pressed the correct buttons to gain power, and created a world tragedy.
When you fail in the analysis, you fail in the political strategy. The left has a lot to think over.

Why the "this time" disclamer ?? Continue on this path, fbaezer. You'll find it's good for you.

Like you I believe that sticking to principles can be a good thing. However, staying tuned to the facts and the measurable reactions of the people is important too. This wouldn't be the first time in human history that even well-intentioned, intelligent people of the ruling class have stuck with principles that have become overtaken by events and changing circumstances. Those who presume to know what is good for others, whatever may be their political orientation, have a tendency, readily observable in history, of degenerating to authoritarian oppression - and in democracies, of ultimately being tossed out on their ears.

This is wonderful. Thank you for demonstrating yet again that you believe the results of democratic elections should be ignored - it does seem to be a tenet of the left, as Gunther Grass (the author I previously quoted) noted - if the left finds them "depressing". Rig the vote, or get a new electorate - just stop claiming you're acting on "principle" without stating your "principle" clearly. Here's Gunther Grass's quote (Walter will be able to look up the German original) of YOUR principle, Mr Baezer:

Your suffocating hypocrisy is beneath contempt.

Now I understand. You don't know how to read.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain that statement? You were wrong once before, concerning NIMH's article, so I've no great confidence in the bases you use for your opinions, but I'm willing to give you one last chance to make an honest statement.

Any recommendations re discussions covering the recent days of the election turmoil in Iran?

There are some threads about this, Mapleleaf.


Brief history of relations between EU and Iran

Meanwhile, in Germany, today the Federal Constitutional Court will rule on the Lisbon Treaty

The court ruled this morning (Tuesday) that the EU's Lisbon reform treaty was compatible with the German constitution (Basic Law) but demanded changes to domestic legislation before the treaty can be formally ratified.
Report at Deutsche Welle