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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 12:01 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
With my little bit of understanding of human culture, the language and social differences, it would seem a huge obsticle to overcome to unite the EU into one cohesive unit - never mind the political and economic differences. It will be interesting to watch - especially during the next few decades when it will make it or lose it. "Compromise" is not in most countries vocabulary - nay, in most individual's vocabulary.

Precisely why many don't have much confidence in the disparate countries (especially the couple pressing for dominance) blending into a cohesive, stable Voice. It is possible, but IMO, very unlikely.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 12:04 pm
Sofia

"The couple" consists of Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, The United Kingdom and Sweden - with several others joined depending on the theme.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 12:05 pm
Here's a link that addresses the legal issues of Poland to reconcile with EU requirements. I've not read it all, but it was my impression that many more countries would have 'similar' issues that must be addressed to unite with the EU laws on trade.

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/SEI/pdfs/wp45.pdf
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Sofia
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 12:09 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Sofia

"The couple" consists of Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, The United Kingdom and Sweden - with several others joined depending on the theme.

Shocked Luxembourg is pressing for dominance?
Sweden? Good God, it's worse than I thought.
Do you think Britain is having second thoughts about uniting with the EU?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 12:11 pm
Sofia

Luxembourg is one of the founding members, the UK, Sweden et. al belong to those, who pay more in the EU then getting out of it.

THE UK IS A FULL EU MEMBER SINCE 1973!
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Sofia
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 12:43 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Sofia

Luxembourg is one of the founding members, the UK, Sweden et. al belong to those, who pay more in the EU then getting out of it.

THE UK IS A FULL EU MEMBER SINCE 1973!

Walter, I'm aware of Britain's current status--I was wondering if they were having second thoughts. They seem to have a better working relationship with the US... Seem to have more in common and just get along better with us... Anyway, I'd read commentaries centering on how the UK seems more and more on the outside of the chummy German/French relationship--and how those two countries may try to minimize the UK in the EU...

I had thought the primary stumbling block to smooth EU 'consolidation' was Germany and France lording over everyone else... It multiplies the difficulties, IMO, knowing Lux, and others were feeling their oats. (I had known Belgium was making noise, but I didn't think anyone was taking them seriously.)

As long as any of them claim superiority over the others, they will fail.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 12:48 pm
Belgium is taken as a founding member as serious as the new coming members e.g. Poland.

Most articles aren't online any more, so here just one example from google:
Quote:
Newsday - 28 Nov 2003
... Washington has been highly critical of plans put forward by France, Germany, Belgium and Luxembourg to launch a separate EU military planning cell, ...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 12:51 pm
Finally, here's the article I was looking for:
Quote:
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Six EU countries want to cap future EU spending, a move which will make it harder to fund aid to poorer regions.

In a letter sent to Commission President Romano Prodi, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, UK and Austria - countries which pay most into the EU's coffers - said that expenditure should not exceed 1 per cent of the EU's gross national income (GNI) from 2007 onwards.
Six EU countries want EU spending capped
Sorry that I could some countries wrong Embarrassed
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 01:01 pm
This BBC-websites offers some(more recent) polls and opinions:

The euro and Europe's blurring borders
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 01:10 pm
Good link, Walter. Thx, c.i.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 01:26 pm
I hadn't been to the BBC link since before the holidays-- There was some good stuff there today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3328875.stmOne Good Thing --by the EU.
The standards of humane behavior established by the EU for membership is finally cleaning up some horrific behavior in Europe. The Kurds may finally get something resembling a fair shake.

Smile
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nimh
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 01:40 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
The country was called 'Germania' by Tacitus


Designations of a territory do not a nation make. See Ning's post on the "France" of old.

Many a current writer refers to "Siberia", but does that mean there exists a Siberian people - or that a 31st century historian can say: see, there was a Siberian nation 1000 years ago already, because the country was called "Siberia" by Solzhenytsin? No, obviously.

In fact, there are a whole bunch of peoples in Siberia, Yakuts, Chukchi's and the like, plus a majority of Russians, and if ever in the upcoming millennium the Urals come to separate two states, "Siberian" might well become more than a territorial or externally assigned label - but tracing the community's lineage back to the name's first occurrences would be foolish.

Many a Romanian nationalist likes to point to Roman-era literary references to "Dacia", in order to prove that "the Romanian nation" goes back two thousand years. Humbug - or, let's say, ideologically inspired reinvention of history.

Or - to add another example - there was a Batavia in ancient times, and the wild people living there were called "Batavians". But the link with the current-day Dutch nation that the founders of the modern Dutch state set out to suggest by calling it "the Batavian republic" is spurious. We might want to imagine some straightforward line of ancestry and the notion that we are continuing an identity first felt by them, but truth is, the Batavian wanderers were most probably not concerned with anything remotely like national identity, acting on family or village loyalty or tribal identity at best, instead.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 01:46 pm
Sofia wrote:

The standards of humane behavior established by the EU for membership is finally cleaning up some horrific behavior in Europe. The Kurds may finally get something resembling a fair shake.

Smile



Some Kurds, I hope, you mean:
Quote:

PKK (Kudistan's Worker Party):
...
Activities
Primary targets have been Turkish Government security forces in Turkey, local Turkish officials, and villagers who oppose the organization in Turkey. Conducted attacks on Turkish diplomatic and commercial facilities in dozens of West European cities in 1993 and again in spring 1995. In an attempt to damage Turkey's tourist industry, the PKK bombed tourist sites and hotels and kidnapped foreign tourists in the early-to-mid 1990s. The PKK/KADEK did not conduct a terrorist attack in 2002; however, the group periodically issues veiled threats that it will resume violence if the conditions of its imprisoned leader are not improved, and it continues its military training and planning.

Strength
Approximately 4,000 to 5,000, most of whom currently are located in northern Iraq. Has thousands of sympathizers in Turkey and Europe.

Location/Area of Operation
Operates in Turkey, Europe, and the Middle East.

External Aid
Has received safe haven and modest aid from Syria, Iraq, and Iran. Damascus generally upheld its September 2000 antiterror agreement with Ankara, pledging not to support the PKK.



The complete "BBC-Europe.story" is to found here:
In Depth: Inside Europe
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 01:51 pm
(Expanded my post above)
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nimh
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 01:53 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
With my little bit of understanding of human culture, the language and social differences, it would seem a huge obsticle to overcome to unite the EU into one cohesive unit - never mind the political and economic differences. It will be interesting to watch - especially during the next few decades when it will make it or lose it. "Compromise" is not in most countries vocabulary - nay, in most individual's vocabulary.


Yet most individuals do engage in compromise, anyway, and so do regions, provinces and countries.

Who in the 17th century would have imagined a cohesive, united Italian state, with inhabitants from Venice to Palermo sharing the same sense of belonging?

These things take time, obviously - centuries rather than years. The European Community has been growing and growing together for a few decades. Considering Europe's track record, it's made amazing progress in doing so, which should stem some of the scepticism about future prospects.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 02:00 pm
nimh wrote:

Designations of a territory do not a nation make. See Ning's post on the "France" of old.


Right, designation of a territory doesn't make a nation nor does it language.

But people in the early Middle Ages were speaking of and knowing about "Germany" - otherwise no-one could have understood e.g. the "Roland": 'alle die in diutisker erde wâren' (quoted from 'Grimms Wörterbuch')
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nimh
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 02:00 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
How do they reconcile the legal system into one?


No-one wants such.


Well, thats not a complete answer. No, there is no talk, desire or plan to merge the legal systems of the various Member States into one common text - nothing remotely like it. But there is an ever growing body of EU law that each Member State has to integrate into its own legislation, a body of law that by now is so extensive that it took the new member states in Central Europe several years to integrate it all. Also, there is EU law that overrides national law, just like the European Court overrides the national courts.

None of that seems to have provoked much in the way of massive popular protest or national government resistance. At most there is some fumbling on the margins, like with the UK under the Conservative governments refusing to integrate laws on minimal working conditions and a minimum wage (but Blair's government turned that around). The lack of serious resistance has probably much to do with the incremental way it is all integrated, via opt-in and opt-out strategies rather than through central imposition.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 02:16 pm
I will say much cooperation has been achieved, more, in some specifics, than I'd have expected possible even a decade ago. I see I've come off seeming a bit gloomier re the EU than perhaps I intended. Significant challenges have been met, but significant challenges remain. Notable among the remaining challenges are Great Britain's retention of an autonomous currency and the need to develop a unified military competent to deal with the threats of the new century, separate from and independent of the US. Of these two challenges, I think it more likely GB will give up the Pound Sterling before there is a functioning Euro-Union Military Establishment; one US Carrier Group represents a capital investment far larger than all European military spending, while the portion of the US Naval Budget devoted just to the USMC is larger than the entire defense budget of any of the European states. Without independent defense capability, the EU is a mere debating society, much as the UN has become, but without the legitimization of charitable works.
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nimh
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 02:28 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
But people in the early Middle Ages were speaking of and knowing about "Germany" - otherwise no-one could have understood e.g. the "Roland": 'alle die in diutisker erde wâren' (quoted from 'Grimms Wörterbuch')


Right. You're saying, there was a place known as "Germany". I'm saying, there was no popular conception or sentiment of being something like "the German people" (Das Deutsche Volk) or "the German nation", a thousand years ago.

Where's the contradiction?

There was a place called Dacia, where people spoke a Romanic language that can be construed as a predecessor of modern Romanian. Again, does that mean "the Romanians" go back a thousand years - or do the Dutch go back a thousand years because of "Batavia"?

Perhaps its wise to point out that this is what I was first replying to:

au1929 wrote:
The nations have existed as they are for over a 1000 years. Take Poland for instance although in it's existence it has been a sovereign nation on and off several times it was always to the people Poland


I don't know how far back au wants to take "always", but I doubt very much that the Slavic peasants of Masuria who lived under Grand Duke Gediminas' rule back in the 14th century, visualised for themselves something like a national homeland "Poland", where the Polish nation as a people would truly be free and at home. None of those sentiments would have applied, regardless of what designations referred to what piece of territory.

Like I said - just so I dont end up arguing about something I'd never touched:

nimh wrote:
I doubt very much whether the people who lived in, say, Saxony or Masuria in the year 1003 called themselves "Germans" or "Poles".

I also strongly doubt that a whole lot of people now living in Saxony or Masuria can trace their lineage back to "Poles" and "Germans" of the 11th century.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 28 Dec, 2003 02:33 pm
nimh

Pardon, vrede, alstublieft :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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