FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

cicerone imposter wrote:

I find it amusing that president Bush wants to bring democracy to the ME, while the EU members do not want Turkey as a member.

I'm missing the connection.

Its not like President Bush is going to welcome any of those ME states as new states of the US ...

The EU too works to encourage ME governments to become democratic. I'm not sure that immediately implies it should embrace them as actual Member States when they do.

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nimh, That's the connection; there is none. Bush is expending American lives and tax dollars to bring democracy to the ME while we at home are suffering from a huge deficit and degradation of our infrastructure and democracy - while the war in Iraq gets worse for everybody on this planet with diminished security for all. Turkey may look like a democracy to many outsiders, but it's as democratic as Egypt.

"By Philip P. Pan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, March 6, 2003; Page A18

ANKARA, Turkey, March 5 -- For years, Ahmet Faruk Unsal listened to U.S. and European critics lecture him about the shortcomings of Turkey's democracy. He nodded as they complained about violations of Kurdish rights or limits on freedom of speech. He acknowledged that the police tortured suspects and agreed the military intervened too often in civilian affairs."

Poor Bush even congratulated Turkey on their democracy. Just goes to show how little Bush really understands what democracy is all about.

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"The EU's internal pressures are serious now and they are more likely to worsen than to improve ... The status quo is looking unsustainable."

"In the words of the OECD, there is, in the eurozone «a chronic pattern of divergent activity»."

"Conflicts between the critics of the Social Market Model and its proponents are intensifying, irrespective of the fate of the constitution."

"The EU will sooner or later have to change and acknoledge that the «one size fits all» model does not work."

Some quotation from the paper by Ruth Lea which was published by the Centre for Policy Studies in June 2005.
It presents a reaction to the 2005 'EU crisis' involving failure to agree a budget and the reject of the EU constitution in referendums in France and the Netherlands.
Alternative scenarios of EU development are offered.

Full paper as pdf-file HERE.

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McTag wrote:

[It was a good speech, very hard-hitting. Not placatory at all, combative.

He might be a little bugger, bu he's OUR little bugger.

I agree. Perhaps hard-hitting to French ears, but otherwise restrained but pointed, in my view. He hit on all the key issues in a way that - hopefully - will excite something other than denial and more backbiting.

Your feelings are quite understandable - others feel that way about their own as well - some in this country..

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Talk about cultural differences of the EU countries, Italy's recent laws against artificial insemination pregnancies, and their treatment of rapists makes for interesting challenge for a common constitution.

Italian bid to castrate rapists
Italy's far-right Northern League has presented a bill to castrate convicted rapists, after a series of rapes in northern Italy by suspected immigrants.
The bill says chemical or surgical castration of offenders is necessary to remove a social disease which is a threat to life and public safety.

But Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu has said crimes by immigrants should not influence policies on immigration.

The bill has been heavily criticised and is unlikely to be passed.

The anti-immigration Northern League is one of four parties in the centre-right coalition government.

Laws 'effective'

"The comparison between illegal immigration and criminality is groundless and should not have an audience in a civil nation like ours," Mr Pisanu told parliament.

He said that the current laws are effective and therefore did not need changing.

Recent rapes in Bologna and Milan by suspected immigrants have led to anti-immigration rallies.

Some 53% of Italians think that the increase in the number of immigrants has increased the threat to citizens' safety while 45% said immigrants posed little or no threat to safety in the country, according to a poll commissioned by L'Espresso magazine this week.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4125566.stm

Published: 2005/06/24 01:21:40 GMT

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I am generally reluctant to pass judgement on the criminal laws and penalties of other countries as long as they avoid the truly egregious. These crimes have both perpetrators and victims and it is very difficult to reconcile the points of view represented by each. If that is what the Italians want ,it is their right and we should not object - it is their country. A good and reliable way to avoid forced castration there is to avoid raping anyone.

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georgeob, I make no judgement about Italy's laws. I just find it interesting how so many different cultures with different laws and economies can really agree to a union constitution. We have only two major parties in our country, and we are as different in philosophy on how this country should be run; 25 just boggles my mind.

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Well, Italy's far right is Northern League is known for making some peculiar suggestions.

It's not that we only have 25 different parties, c.i., but countries, each with a couple (like in Italy even a couple in the government) of parties.

Agreements develop in democratic processes.

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Good point Cicerone. However If we can get by uniting South Carolina and California, Texas and Massachusets, then perhaps the Europeans may do it with Italians and Danes. Clearly the different economic situations and historical perspectives of the 25 members are already having a visible effect. However there is also an evident widespread and powerful desire for a degree of economic and political unity. They have already overcome enormous obstacles to get where they are. It will take time, but I believe they will likely succeed.

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It's true they have overcome some enormous obstacles in the past, but they will also encounter many more obstacles in the future like the disagreements they are having with agricultural subsidies. They face bigger problems with their demographics, what they consider the "Muslim Problem, and untenable social program costs. I don't think these problem are short-term problems that will disappear from the landscape any time soon. I agree with Blair that an open market system for the EU is their only hope, but they will find resistence from many partners of the EU. I also hope they succeed, because that speaks to a more stable world in Europe. As with the US, the EU has still not addressed the transfer of jobs to China and India which makes EU products and services less competitive in the world markets. Infighting will not serve them well.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Good point Cicerone. However If we can get by uniting South Carolina and California, Texas and Massachusets, then perhaps the Europeans may do it with Italians and Danes.

Actually, this would be miles (kilometers) beyond what the EU is, what the EU-constituion is about .... and what 95+% of Europe want.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Actually, this would be miles (kilometers) beyond what the EU is, what the EU-constituion is about .... and what 95+% of Europe want.

I wasn't aware that 95+% of Europe wants what's in the EU constitution. Certainly it isn't what the French and the Dutch said when they were actually asked. Maybe, just maybe, the result of the election means exactly what it said: That the people have looked at the proposed constitution, more or less understood what it was saying, and just didn't like it. But in several hours' worth of interviews on Deutschlandfunk, I can't remember hearing a single politician consider this plain and straightforward interpretation.

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I am a bit perplexed by the rhetoric surrounding the post referendum EU budget and strategy meetings. Even after discounting for Chirac's obvious attempts to shift the focus & blame anywhere else, I have a hard time sorting out the reports of widespread resistance to increased economic competition - all almost exclusively in the context of EU, not national policy.

The nations of Europe face these issues with or without an EU. The only connection I can see is with the new members from Eastern Europe who need economic liberalization for the same general reasons, and also, more immediately, to lift themselves out of the poverty and lethargy that are the products of two generations of authoritarian socialism and central planning.

It is quite understandable, given their economic and social achievements over the past generation, that the nations of Western Europe would be reluctant to face the present necessity for reform - a very human reaction. However, why is this controversy so tied up in the EU question?

I understand that the opposing camps of reform and denial would like to force or prevent constructive action (as the case may be) through EU policy, if they can't get what they want in their national government. Are EU economic controls so prescriptive that constructive economic reform can come only through the EU???

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Talk about cultural differences of the EU countries, Italy's recent laws against artificial insemination pregnancies, and their treatment of rapists makes for interesting challenge for a common constitution.

I think the relevant bit in that article is:

Quote:

The bill has been heavily criticised and is unlikely to be passed.

The Lega Nord's Umberto Bossi is, despite his party's participation in government, the Italian equivalent of Zhirinovsky; a vitriolic clown. The party's various wild causes (not least the one it was founded for: the independence of "Padania", or Northern-Italy) are considered both radical and rather out there by most Italians as well.

The point being that any new trial balloon of the party's does not represent Italian culture any more than the 3,9% of the country's voters who voted for the Lega does; so I doubt the proposal says anything about cultural differences we have to grapple with on a European level.

Now Berlusconi's rhetorical glitches, thats another matter ...

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Even more relevant than the Northern League's politics is the term "chemical" preceding "castration" in their proposed legislation. The practice is widespread in a number of jurisdictions (including the US) and is usually offered as an alternative to indefinite detention in psychiatric facilities:
__________________________________________

"These laws, deemed to be medically unethical by most mental health professionals, have, however, been held by appellate courts to be in accordance with the Constitution. They permit the indefinite institutionalisation of sexually predatory violent offenders at the end of their finite penal terms. This procedure reminded me of similar provisions in the UK for the compulsory detention of prisoners (in mental health facilities), at the end of their prison sentences - a procedure that has led to much concern and bitterness on the part of those subjected to it."
__________________________________________
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4121/is_200502/ai_n13591668

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georgeob1 wrote:

It is quite understandable, given their economic and social achievements over the past generation, that the nations of Western Europe would be reluctant to face the present necessity for reform - a very human reaction. However, why is this controversy so tied up in the EU question?

Because while the concept of the meddlesome welfare state has been a net loss to the West European nations who tried it, its effects don't all point in one direction: Some people benefit from it, some lose. Hence, politicians find it practical and attractive to take credit for the good stuff, while using either Europe or globalization as scapegoats for the bad stuff. The myths you have heard aren't true, but they have been repeated so often that many here in Europe believe them. (As do many in America, judging by the current debate over CAFTA.)

There is also a grain of truth to those myths, and it involves the "offshoring" to close-by European neighbors. Reasonable people can disagree whether the optimal size of government is lean and mean or high taxes for generous services. But since European nations are much, much smaller than the USA, it is corporations and rich individuals to pay taxes often find ways to pay taxes to one of the lean and mean governments, but still enjoy the services of the high-taxing, free-spending governments. That is a valid concern.

georgeob1 wrote:

Are EU economic controls so prescriptive that constructive economic reform can come only through the EU???

No, but if you implement an unpopular reform, it's often convenient to say: "I don't really want to do this, but Brussels, you know ...."

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Thomas wrote:

I wasn't aware that 95+% of Europe wants what's in the EU constitution. Certainly it isn't what the French and the Dutch said when they were actually asked. ....

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

I was only referring to George's
if we can get by uniting South Carolina and California, Texas and Massachusets
and wanted to say that 95+% don't a united Europe in the sense of the USA. (Well, at least that's what I think :wink: )

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Tomorrow: elections in Bulgaria.

Looks like the Prime Minister who used to be King (really) will be voted out; and the results will instead make it very hard to form a new coalition, with no two combination of parties gaining a majority and no obvious three-party combinations with a majority in sight.

Courtesy of Angus Reid, here's some background and a chronological update so far and news on the latest opinion poll.

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Voting in Bulgaria can be a big win:

Quote:

Council of Europe: Lottery for People Who Vote - Reforming Suggestion for Increase of Turn Out

24 June 2005 | 16:51 | FOCUS News Agency

Sofia. We have many times underlined the necessity from increasing the turn out at the elections at all levels of competition called elections", this is what the Council of Europe thinks for some so called reforming suggestions that could increase the turn out. The election lottery is one of these suggestions. This is the view point of the Council of Europe written in the so called Green Book in which they analyse the different untraditional ideas, including for increasing of the turn out and participation of all citizens in the rule. There is a presented variant in the Green Book according to which every citizen after casting his ballot he/she gets lottery ticket. The winning tickets are announced at the same time as the election results. Thus according to the Green Book there could be a lottery or even three lotteries for the voters.

Source

Or as the CSM said: If you vote in Bulgaria, you may win a Hyundai

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Yep - this from the Angus Reid summary:

Quote:

Officials expressed concern over the possibility of a low turnout. On May 30, the government approved a controversial project that would make every voter a participant in a lottery draw. The Central Elections Commission (CEC) originally opposed the idea, saying it could be interpreted as a violation of a voter's confidentiality.

Voters would need to sign up for the draw via text messaging or phone calls. The combined prizes will total $500,000 U.S. DSB deputy leader Ekaterina Mihailova described the lottery project as "an attempt to rig the elections." Defence minister Nikolai Svinarov, who is also the deputy leader of the NDSV, said those opposed to the idea "do not want a high voter turnout."

I love that last bit of rhetorics. But the ex-communists are adept at rhetorics too:

Quote:

On Apr. 9, Stanishev pledged to raise salaries between 15 to 20 per cent next year, saying, "The huge gap between economic development and the level of income should be narrowed."

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