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When is it a human being?

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Terry
 
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 03:46 pm
Given that all stages listed are alive and have unique human DNA, at what point in development do you believe it has met the requirements to be considered a human being/person?

Do you make a distinction between a human being and a person? If so, what is the difference?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 4,726 • Replies: 96
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 03:56 pm
I'll give it a shot, Terry, and say it is human (a person) when it begins to develope a personality. I suppose that implies some sort of life experience, but I'm not ready to pin it down further.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 08:24 pm
I'd have to ask what is the purpose of this exercise? Is there some special right assigned to one's being labeled a person? And if only the passage of time separates the zygote/fetus/whatever from humanity, we mark the division only at our peril.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 08:43 pm
neologist wrote:
I'd have to ask what is the purpose of this exercise? Is there some special right assigned to one's being labeled a person? And if only the passage of time separates the zygote/fetus/whatever from humanity, we mark the division only at our peril.


What is perilous about marking the division?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 10:48 pm
Lets see if anyone else will jump in this canoe.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 10:56 pm
I don't have an answer Terry.

I could guess at one, but what would be the point? If I was a doctor, I may feel differently.

I would say that I'm less in support of legal, easy abortion the further down the list you go (but neverless, still in support all the way to birth)
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Nov, 2006 12:07 am
Re: When is it a human being?
Terry wrote:

Do you make a distinction between a human being and a person?


No. Do you?
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Nov, 2006 06:24 am
Roger, I think that my kids were born with a personality, or at least a tendency to react in different ways to stimulation. But that was two decades ago, so perhaps my memories are colored by traits they developed later.


Neologist, like any other poll, the purpose is to find out what people think. I know that polls have asked when life begins, but I am trying to find out how many people distinguish between life and personhood.

What is the peril in using time to divide life from humanity?


Eorl, nothing wrong in guessing, Everyone else does. Smile


Real life, IMO, it is a human being when it begins to think like one (brain waves). It is a person when it begins to interact with other humans (birth).
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Nov, 2006 11:50 am
Quote:
Do you make a distinction between a human being and a person? If so, what is the difference?


As I see it we are all just men and women until we have learned to take responsibility for all our actions. When we've learned this we have developed into humans, no longer acting by the animal impulses we feel, hunger, fear, sexual lust and so on, but by the force of our conscience and intellect.

Man and woman are just animals. Humanity is something all of us have the potential for, but we must still strive for it.


Animal Cyracuz
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Nov, 2006 01:03 pm
Re: When is it a human being?
Terry wrote:
Given that all stages listed are alive and have unique human DNA, at what point in development do you believe it has met the requirements to be considered a human being/person?

Do you make a distinction between a human being and a person? If so, what is the difference?


I'm taking the easy road on this one Terry. This link provides my clear-cut answer: :wink: :wink: :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Nov, 2006 05:14 pm
Re: When is it a human being?
baddog1 wrote:
Terry wrote:
Given that all stages listed are alive and have unique human DNA, at what point in development do you believe it has met the requirements to be considered a human being/person?

Do you make a distinction between a human being and a person? If so, what is the difference?


I'm taking the easy road on this one Terry. This link provides my clear-cut answer: :wink: :wink: :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person


baddog, your definition would seem to exclude new born babies (who are not yet self-aware). Just wait until real life sees that and pretends you are some kind of ridiculous monster for having put that forward.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Nov, 2006 07:49 pm
Eorl, note that Terry says her kids were born with personality. That's her word against who knows what, but she could be right. I would go so far as to say that if a newborn has personality, self awareness is not a stretch.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Nov, 2006 07:58 pm
Terry wrote:
Roger, I think that my kids were born with a personality, or at least a tendency to react in different ways to stimulation. But that was two decades ago, so perhaps my memories are colored by traits they developed later.


Neologist, like any other poll, the purpose is to find out what people think. I know that polls have asked when life begins, but I am trying to find out how many people distinguish between life and personhood.

What is the peril in using time to divide life from humanity?


Eorl, nothing wrong in guessing, Everyone else does. Smile


Real life, IMO, it is a human being when it begins to think like one (brain waves). It is a person when it begins to interact with other humans (birth).


So if one cannot interact with others ( i.e. person in a coma, person who has severe injury, person with mental retardation, one who is deaf and blind, etc ), are they NOT persons?

In the Dred Scott decision, the US Supreme Court recognized some to be human beings, but not persons under the US Constitution. Do you agree with the reasoning in Dred Scott?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Nov, 2006 12:43 am
Quote:
What is the earliest stage at which it is a person?


Isn't the question 'when does life begin' more to the point. To ask when personage occurs is simple to answer ... when the subject becomes 'self aware' and can see their self as separate from their environment, then they are people.
The crux lies in the question 'when does life begin'? Egg and sperm combine to seemingly instill life .... the question I have is did the life originate with the egg and what it was before becoming an egg? It would appear the sperm has nothing to contribute but a different DNA molecule ... the egg can be fertilized with a single cell. Where did the life come from?
What came before the egg?
I know you will be tempted but please don't say the chicken Smile
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Nov, 2006 09:28 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:
What is the earliest stage at which it is a person?


Isn't the question 'when does life begin' more to the point. To ask when personage occurs is simple to answer ... when the subject becomes 'self aware' and can see their self as separate from their environment, then they are people.


Is one not a person before introspection of this degree occurs? One may well be several years old or more before pondering such matters.

In addition, the word "person" carries legal ramifications, as in the Dred Scott decision and in Roe v Wade.

If one is a living human being at some point , but is still not legally a person, then this individual (or group of individuals) may be legally denied rights, as was done in Dred Scott and Roe v Wade.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Nov, 2006 11:19 pm
From the first mixing of DNA we are of the genus human, shortly after cell division builds a more recognizable mass we become a person among people. I think that is what Terry was going for.
My question was more in regard to when does the 'power', if you will, of animation occur in the mass of growing cells. Or does the, again for lack of a better word, energy exist in the egg or sperm. I can't believe that life can be created from nothing. Under what circumstance would the power to animate flesh come about. Is it of a chemical or spiritual nature ...
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 01:10 am
I voted other because I think some 'people' never make human being. Sure, they're homo sapiens, but not human, as in 'having humanity'. I doubt we have any consensus on what a human being is, so it's unlikely we are doing the poll any justice.

I can see a time when a human personality could operate within a machine-like environment - self aware and still creative. I'd call that a human being, if it had some other qualities that I consider mandatory for the label.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 01:25 am
Gelisgeti, what beginning?

Life simply continues, two forms combine to produce a third.

It's probably more obvious when you look at other forms of reproduction in other species, such as vegetative propogation.

In humans, all that really happens is that DNA from the parents is split in half, and half of each is added together to form a template from which another is built using raw materials supplied by the mother over 9 months.

If some magic, soul, spirit or whatever "arrives" at some point....where does that bit go when embryos are frozen?
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 07:42 am
I honestly don't know. However, when I first knew I was pregnant, it felt like a human being/person (I see no distinction between person or human being) to me. My husband and I wanted and we planning for a family - I wonder if I would have felt differently though if I was single and this pregnancy was unplanned? I can't answer as this had not happened to me.

As far as personality - my babies had personalities in a sense even before they were born - of this I am sure. They moved completely differently - one moved a lot and very aggressively - I was poked a lot - the other seemed much more comfortable and moved more easily and slowly - just like their personalities.

Gelisgesti - I think there is a difference between when life begins and when you would consider a fetus a human being/person. I fetus is living - it is just what sort of life is a fetus at varies stages. If we could all answer this question with certainty, then abortion would no longer be an issue.

Hingehead - I would have to agree with you there - some people are never human in that sense.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Nov, 2006 10:05 am
When my mother died I followed her wish to be cremated and have her ashes scattered on her mother and fathers graves. At the grave site I opened the box and found there was only a white powder inside. I don't know what I expected to find in the box but what I did find was ... upsetting. I sat by the graves after the services and wondered what was the magic of life? What power can not only animate us but also point us in the direction of ascension? Greater than that was the knowledge of ascension necessary to formulate the process of, for lack of a better word, evolution.
Where does life begin? We have the ability to grow a baby in a tube but not the ability to grant a recipe life.
To know when life begins is to know what is missing between a box of sand, and a mother.
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