Is a utopia posible?

Utopia certainly has a pretty dismal historical record. Most attempts to create them have ended disastrously.

Yeah, Utopia usually turns out to be as disappointing in reality as Fruitopia.

aperson, are you qualified to speak of drink? Aren't you the youngest member here? <there>

I believe that a utopia of any kind will require that people put aside a large measure of self-interest and address needs of the society at large. Unfortunately, I don't see human nature suddenly changing any time soon or any time in the distant future. I think that while you can find individuals who are willing to love their neighbors, too many people will just be interested in looking out for number one.

Re: Is a utopia posible?

A utopia is simply an 'ideal' civilization.
What constitutes 'Ideal' is relative to the observer.
Can a Utopia exist? For some it probably already does.

Yeah, what the Dok said.

I like to think that moving towards utopia is a worthwhile endeavor for it's own sake. I just need to get everybody else to agree with my ideas of what utopia is.

Re: Is a utopia posible?


I think that's the gist of Aperson's point: in order to have a utopia in any meaningful sense of the term (i.e. a sense that is applicable to more than any one person's imagination), you'd need to have lots of observers whose perceptions of what is an ideal way of life coincide, not to mention communal agreement about the best way to put this ideal way of life into actual practice. As you aptly point out, utopias are entirely possible when they exist at the level of the observer; but by that point, we're no longer talking about ideal societies anymore since a society is a system of interactions between people (in the plural). A "private utopia" has about as much reality as a "private language"--i.e. a language that only one person fully understands. Both are restricted enough to be possible, but that very restriction saps the terms of any practical meaning.

Note the most recent change in my profile. <there>

hey i was writing a paper on the existence of utopia!!

I think utopia doesnt exist... look at this world right now, everyone is trying so hard making one, but they are making this world worse than before. For example, if North Korea had the money to build nuke, why CANT they use that money to feed their starving folks. China is even worst, you know how many ppl are dying because they dont have a home or food? But gues what China thinks? They are thinking about their "outer space developing" and think that by doing so, they can make China a better place. Well to hell with them, one day China will regret their stupid decision "man, we are stupid, we should have helped out those people in need first", but i doubt that day will ever come in my life time

And to talk about donation.... dont you guys often find that no matter how much we donate, it just dont ever seem enough? I wonder WTF happened to all the money we donated... first they have to be processed, then shipped the other places, and processed again.. think of the application fees and stuff... and you can ALWAYS count on that there will ALWAYS be greedy bastard that are greedy enough make those donations into their own pocket money. By the time the donation get into their hand, the amount of the donation would only be faction of what we had donated. Now you people tell me, IS THIS WHAT U CALL UTOPIA, WHERE EVERYONE LIE, CHEAT AND STEAL????? I THINK NOT!!!!

and to those that believe utopia exist.. well it can exist.. in your silly little dream..

Welcome to A2K english.

Just because it can't exist does it mean the dream has no value? If everyone abandoned trying to achieve Utopia, would the world be better or worse than it is now?

If China eventually finds a way to colonise other planets and moons, so that they can support 1000 times more people, will that prove worthwhile in the long run? Plenty of people were starving in Europe while trips to discover and settle America were being funded. Do you think they should have spent that money feeding the poor slightly better instead?

(PS We have this quirky way at A2K, where we speak in complete words and sentences. I'd encourage you to join us. Sure, it's old school, but it's one of the things that sets A2K apart from the rest. It makes "spellcheck" easier to use too.)

o sorry about my "tyop", didn't know

ok, you think china is gonna do something crazy like that? They might, when they have a new govern system, but I won't bet on it. The government has all the power over China, and just that alone won't make utopia comes truth.

Doktor has said that "A utopia is simply an 'ideal' civilization.
What constitutes 'Ideal' is relative to the observer.
Can a Utopia exist? For some it probably already does."

One can define utopia both as "good place" and, more realistically, as "no place." If it is an ideal, from the perspective of an individual living in a utopian society it must also be ideal from the perspectives of that society's members. I think that kind of consensus is unlikely to occur and to be maintained.

I should clarify: Doktor seems to be speaking about an ideal condition from the subjective perspective of an individual. I am referring to the term, utopia, as I think it is generally used: as an ideal objective society.

JL, could such a place exist even in theory? Could two people agree, even on paper?

Actually, could a single person think of such a place and be self-consistent.

(eg: a place where you can always ask a neighbour for help any time of day or night, a place where people never wake you up at 3am)

Eori, I agree. To me "utopia" means NO place.

Re: Is a utopia posible?

In a world without "social" challenges to overcome, no one would miss what they had never experienced. There are certainly enough other real or invented challenges in life to keep our minds and bodies active.

IMO, only a dull and unimaginative person would find the incredible wonders and possibilities of life on earth insufficient and require wars or other social conflict to be truly happy.

Terry and Aperson, I see value in both of your statements. Nietzsche has argued that all growth comes with opposition. The abililty to meet challenge is essential to that growth. I remember in my youth in Los Angeles, the friends who simply "turned on" (to pot) when faced with stressful situations tended to be the ones who did not succeed in school and life generally. They refused to face challenges. At the same time, I agree with Terry that even in an ideal situation there are always challenges. Now that I am retired with no debts and abundant health--the best circumstance of my life--I continue to find challenges in painting and music. There is no end to the positive stresses that I can create for myself. Not all stress is bad.

In Voltaire's "Candide", Dr. Pangloss (a caricature of Liebnitz, I believe) argued that this is the best of all possible worlds. Candide traveled the world to catalog its myriad miseries. But Nietzsche argued that wisdom is the ability to see the perfection in things as they are, misery and all. His motto was "amor fati": love your destiny (exactly as it is, because that is all there is). So from that perspective (and the mystical perspectives of zen and vedanta) we all live in a kind of utopia; but this is not so from the perspective of "normal mind".

Terry,
The debate over "you don't miss it if you've never known it" is a completely different story, so let's stay out of it.