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Morality without God?

 
 
agrote
 
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 11:27 am
If there is no God, can actions still be morally right or wrong? If so, how?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 2,643 • Replies: 40
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 03:21 pm
Re: Morality without God?
agrote wrote:
If there is no God, can actions still be morally right or wrong? If so, how?


Morality has always been defined by us (mankind).

Even if we assume there is a god, man has always interpreted God's intents and desires, so it was still us who defined morality.

Removing God from the equation doesn't change our view of morality, it only changes who (or what) we credit morality to.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 03:24 pm
"morality" is a human concept. Whatever a culture or similar group considers "moral" has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with God. Divine fiat may be used as a compelling reason to convince people to act a certain way, but many people would act in such a "moral" way anyway, God or no God. I know a number of self-proclaimed atheists who are among the most upstanding, selfless "moral" individuals imagineable. In a very real sense, concepts of morality have nothing to do with "right" or "wrong." What is "right" or "moral" is that which is s generally socially accepted behaviour.
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 03:26 pm
Hi, rosborne. Apparently I was typing as you were hitting the "submit" button. Great minds etc...etc...
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 03:27 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
Hi, rosborne. Apparently I was typing as you were hitting the "submit" button. Great minds etc...etc...

Smile
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Tico
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 03:32 pm
Ok, I'll take the plunge.

I believe that most humans inherently know good from evil.

I'll go even further. I believe that most humans prefer to do good rather than evil. Good is natural. We know, without being told by any deity, that it is wrong to kill another human, to steal, to slander, to covet, to disrespect, etc. That way lies chaos and ultimately destruction of our kind. It is against natural instinct to destroy your own species. We do not need religion or priests to teach this. It is inherent, instinctive.

Good is also easy, and like a river finding the path of least resistance through a canyon, easy is natural. It is easier to do the right thing (not to kill, not to steal, not to lie) than the wrong thing. The wrong action takes planning and effort because it goes against our natural goodness. Again, we do not need religious leaders to teach us this -- we need only to listen to our own consciences.
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Greyfan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 03:39 pm
Morality came before God. God was invented, among other reasons, to give force to moral "laws", which would otherwise be subject to debate, uncertainty, and even, in changing times, revision.

Why do we have to do this? God said so.

This has the same cachet as "Where did we come from? God made us," among those who prefer answers, no matter how vapid, to uncertainty of any kind.

Just my opinion, obviously.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 05:09 am
Tico wrote:
Ok, I'll take the plunge.

I believe that most humans inherently know good from evil.

I'll go even further. I believe that most humans prefer to do good rather than evil. Good is natural. We know, without being told by any deity, that it is wrong to kill another human, to steal, to slander, to covet, to disrespect, etc. That way lies chaos and ultimately destruction of our kind. It is against natural instinct to destroy your own species. We do not need religion or priests to teach this. It is inherent, instinctive.

Good is also easy, and like a river finding the path of least resistance through a canyon, easy is natural. It is easier to do the right thing (not to kill, not to steal, not to lie) than the wrong thing. The wrong action takes planning and effort because it goes against our natural goodness. Again, we do not need religious leaders to teach us this -- we need only to listen to our own consciences.


First of all, I don't think that what you are describing is an awareness of good and evil - or not the sort of good and evil that religious people talk about. And secondly, I don't think you have accurately described our natural instincts, because I think that what many people would describe as "selfishness" is more of a natural human inclination than what you have called "natural goodness".

My first point is that, without God, surely it isn't actually wrong to kill your own children, for example. From an evolutionary perspective, we can definitely say that killing your own children is a really bad idea if you want to propogate your own genes. Or from what you have said, we can say it is a bad idea to kill people if you want the human race to survive(though I don't quite agree with this, but I'll come to that later). But don't Christians believes something more than this? Isn't something lost if we reject religious ethics? Namely, actions actually being wrong, rather than just a bad idea if it happens to go against your desires.

My second point is just that I don't agree with the details of what you have described as human instincts. The unit of survival is not the human race, it is the individual, or possibly even the individual gene. We do not instinctively want the human race to survive, we just want our genes to survive. Why do you think there is so much racism in the world? If we all instinctively wanted the human race to survive, then according to you it would be easier to be tolerant of other races. But on the contrary, I think that it is easy to be prejudiced against people who look different, and much harder to learn to be tolerant and peaceful towards such people, and aware that they are only superficially different.

This is because the unit of survival is the individual, or the gene. We are naturally inclined to be hostile towards someone who looks very different to us (and therefore has very different genes), because we do not naturally care about humans in general. We care (unconsciously/instinctively) only about our own genes. If it is wrong to kill humans, then we do not instinctively know this; killing people who are genetically different from us is perfectly consistent with our natural instincts. You seem to suggest that what is natural is good. According to your account it would be good for me to kill a black man.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 08:15 am
agrote wrote:
But don't Christians believes something more than this? Isn't something lost if we reject religious ethics? Namely, actions actually being wrong, rather than just a bad idea if it happens to go against your desires.


There is no 'actually being wrong' as you put it. 'Right' and 'Wrong' are purely subjective concepts, there's no 'actually' to it.

Various religious ethics are chosen to represent selected moralities. Different cultures choose them differently.

Most cultures however have a level of similarity in ethics, which derive from the various needs of the culture. This is a strong indication that all ethics and morality have a basis in human needs and desires. These things don't come from god, they come from the base of our brain and the roots of our physiology.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 08:23 am
agrote wrote:
This is because the unit of survival is the individual, or the gene.


For humans, that probably isn't true.

The unit of survival for humans is certainly the pair (male and female), and probably the clan (a group of individuals).

Despite the fact that we are relatively intolerant of differences in people, we are extremely tolerant of our own group, whatever that may be, color, social class, religion, whatever. As a matter of fact, it's this tendency to define groups and clans which actually create divisions which we are intolerant of.
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megamanXplosion
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 11:23 am
God is not the source of morals. This is...


http://files.myopera.com/megamanXplosion/albums/132277/empathy-in-brain-scan.jpg
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 02:54 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
There is no 'actually being wrong' as you put it. 'Right' and 'Wrong' are purely subjective concepts, there's no 'actually' to it.


I completely agree with you.

Hypothetically speaking, though, if Christian doctrine were true then morality wouldn't be subjective, would it? in that case there would be such a thing as 'actually being wrong', wouldn't there? In rejecting theism, something is lost, isn't it?

For the record, I don't believe in God and I do believe that morality is subjective and not objective.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 02:55 pm
agrote wrote:
Hypothetically speaking, though, if Christian doctrine were true then morality wouldn't be subjective, would it? in that case there would be such a thing as 'actually being wrong', wouldn't there? In rejecting theism, something is lost, isn't it?


I'm not sure I agree.

I think the only thing that changes is your viewpoint.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 05:35 pm
In the long run, it's only a matter of semantics.

"What is moral is whatever I feel good after; what is immoral is whatever I feel bad after." Ernest Hemingway, Death in the Afternoon.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 05:39 am
Merry Andrew wrote:
In the long run, it's only a matter of semantics.

"What is moral is whatever I feel good after; what is immoral is whatever I feel bad after." Ernest Hemingway, Death in the Afternoon.


But that is not what theists believe, is it? Christians, at least, would not agree with those definitions of good and immoral. We can redifine morality, perhaps as what you've quoted there. But the kind of objective morality, which is possible if there is a God, cannot survive our rejection of theism. Something is lost.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 05:52 am
agrote wrote:
But that is not what theists believe, is it? Christians, at least, would not agree with those definitions of good and immoral. We can redifine morality, perhaps as what you've quoted there. But the kind of objective morality, which is possible if there is a God, cannot survive our rejection of theism. Something is lost.


I think what you're losing is an illusion. But it is a loss.

Are we missing your point?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Oct, 2006 05:53 am
It's still just semantics. I know that we make a distinction between "moral" and "ethical", the former word including a connotation of divine sanction, whereas there is no such necessary connotation in the latter. But in practical terms the two words are actually intercangeable. What we mean by moral behavior is no different from what we mean by ethical behavior. The provenance of the word "moral" itself shows this to be so. The pre-Christian Latin word mores means no more than acceptable social behavior, the norm of the prevalent culture. Over the centuries, admittedly, the word has acquired some esoteric connotations.
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Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Oct, 2006 12:10 am
agrote wrote:
Merry Andrew wrote:
In the long run, it's only a matter of semantics.

"What is moral is whatever I feel good after; what is immoral is whatever I feel bad after." Ernest Hemingway, Death in the Afternoon.


But that is not what theists believe, is it? Christians, at least, would not agree with those definitions of good and immoral. We can redifine morality, perhaps as what you've quoted there. But the kind of objective morality, which is possible if there is a God, cannot survive our rejection of theism. Something is lost.


Without those who believe in God...like christians...that which is deemed socially acceptable and therefore moral would eventually become meaningless. That is what would be lost.

Of course some would say that which is considered socially acceptable or moral is already meaningless to them......until law enforcement shows up anyways.

Those who regard God as meaningless will continue to do so....until....
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Oct, 2006 01:30 am
Re: Morality without God?
agrote wrote:
If there is no God, can actions still be morally right or wrong? If so, how?

Actions can be deemed morally right or wrong based on how they affect other beings.

If there is a God who says that an action is morally right while reason and empathy tell us that it is morally wrong, on what basis do we ignore what God said in favor of our own beliefs? If God can be wrong about some things, how can we rely on anything that he allegedly said?

According to the Bible, God said that it is moral to own slaves and beat them as long as they don't die for a day or two, it is moral to force a girl to marry her rapist, it is moral to exterminate your neighbors and take their land, it is moral to slaughter children and rape captured virgins, it is moral to kill people for sexual offenses or violating the Sabbath, it is moral to make blood sacrifices to God to avert his wrath, and it is moral to punish people for a sin committed by a remote ancestor.

Who decides which of God's decrees are still in effect and which have been rescinded? Why would God give different rules to different groups, and how can we determine which of the hundreds of versions represents God's True Rules of Morality?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Oct, 2006 09:03 am
Re: Morality without God?
Terry wrote:
agrote wrote:
If there is no God, can actions still be morally right or wrong? If so, how?

Actions can be deemed morally right or wrong based on how they affect other beings.

If there is a God who says that an action is morally right while reason and empathy tell us that it is morally wrong, on what basis do we ignore what God said in favor of our own beliefs? If God can be wrong about some things, how can we rely on anything that he allegedly said?

According to the Bible, God said that it is moral to own slaves and beat them as long as they don't die for a day or two, it is moral to force a girl to marry her rapist, it is moral to exterminate your neighbors and take their land, it is moral to slaughter children and rape captured virgins, it is moral to kill people for sexual offenses or violating the Sabbath, it is moral to make blood sacrifices to God to avert his wrath, and it is moral to punish people for a sin committed by a remote ancestor.

Who decides which of God's decrees are still in effect and which have been rescinded? Why would God give different rules to different groups, and how can we determine which of the hundreds of versions represents God's True Rules of Morality?


'That' God isn't worthy of us, or of Godhood.
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