18
   

When is an embryo defined as alive!?

 
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 03:23 am
@rockpie,
You are entitled to your own poinion rockpie, and to chose according to your moral standing. But it seems you do not agree with me that everyone should be free to make the best choice for themselves.

Your view suggests that a woman becomes a hatching machine from the moment of conception. That's ridiculous. An embryo is NOT a human being. To terminate a pregnancy is not killing, since the cells you remove do not yet meet the definition of a living organism.
rockpie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 06:51 am
@Cyracuz,
I agree that everyone should be able to make free choices, but I don't agree that everyone can make free choices. If that followed I would be free to commit numerous crimes unpunished. I don't think that a pregnant mother should be allowed to terminate her baby, just as a mother of a child shouldn't be allowed to kill it.

As you said, this is my opinion versus your opinion.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 09:21 am
@rockpie,
No, you would not be free to commit numerous crimes unpunished, since by doing so you would deprive others of their choices.

And that's the key. My opinion doesn't restrict any others but me, while you seek to restrict the choices of pregnant women with your opinion.

There is a big difference between the right to chose for yourself and to just do whatever you want.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 09:28 am
@rockpie,
rockpie, you speak of "we" - who is we? I do not share your opinion as do
many others. So please speak for yourself, and yourself only. A 12 week old
embryo is not a human being - scientifically proven!
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 09:44 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

No, you would not be free to commit numerous crimes unpunished, since by doing so you would deprive others of their choices.

And that's the key. My opinion doesn't restrict any others but me, while you seek to restrict the choices of pregnant women with your opinion.

There is a big difference between the right to chose for yourself and to just do whatever you want.

And you count the rights of the developing child as unimportant, even when it will be born in a day or and hour? A fetus can't speak for itself yet, but then, neither can a baby soon after birth.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 09:45 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

...A 12 week old embryo is not a human being - scientifically proven!

Can you please direct me to the proof? A link, perhaps?
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 10:13 am
@Brandon9000,
Any medical dictionary will tell you this, Brandon, that an embryo is
an organism in the early stages of growth.

Quote:
The prenatal stage of mammalian development characterized by rapid morphological changes and the differentiation of basic structures.
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 10:19 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Any medical dictionary will tell you this, Brandon, that an embryo is
an organism in the early stages of growth.

Quote:
The prenatal stage of mammalian development characterized by rapid morphological changes and the differentiation of basic structures.



You're just a woman, CJ. Please step back and let Brandon and the guys settle this question. Only a man could understand the complexities. When they get finished, they will inform you what to do with your body.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 10:25 am
@edgarblythe,
I know edgar. I wonder if these guys want to get back at all women because
their mother decided to have them circumsized ?
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 10:46 am
@Brandon9000,
That's taking it abit far Brandon.
There is a big difference between a developing child and a fetus.

And I beg to differ. A child soon after birth can speak for itself. Hurt it, and it will cry. Can't get much clearer than that. Don't get so caught up in words that you can't hear the meanings for the sounds.

By the way, there is extensive reseach being done on the quality of life of children born before the 22nd week of pregnancy. Some countries are even considering letting such children die without artificially sustaining them after birth, since by all indications, the life quality of such children and the adults who are set to care for them is so low that it is better if they do not live.

Now, if you think that sounds harsh or inhumane, then by all means, do what you think is morally right for you to do. But don't force your morals on anyone else.

And on a slightly different note; if a child cannot survive without the care of the mother, and the mother decides that she will no longer care for the child, isn't that also her choice to make?
Never mind the morally inferior state of any person who makes such a desicion. My point is simply that I would rather see the child dead at 5 months of age than see an adult raised through abuse and neglect to become a liability to society or a danger to himself and the people around him.
Of course, neither of those scenarios are very pretty. They do not fit into our moral ideals, but they happen nonetheless. How about setting our ideals aside then, and look at solutions that make things better for all involved. As good as they can be, even if they never reach the altitudes of our inflated sense of justice and moral hypocristy.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:22 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Any medical dictionary will tell you this, Brandon, that an embryo is
an organism in the early stages of growth.

Quote:
The prenatal stage of mammalian development characterized by rapid morphological changes and the differentiation of basic structures.

So, then, you are using a definition of human which involves being born as a requirement. That is just a defintion, and is not, as you stated, scientifically proven. If you think that it has been proven rather than defined, then, once again, I ask you to direct me to the proof.

That would be as good as any other definition, except for the fact that you were responding to a post by rockpie essentially stating that abortion is murder and not within the legitimate purview or the mother's rights. So, therefore, you are defining abortion as being alright because the fetus isn't human according to a definition. Therefore, you are simply defining abortion as being alright, which isn't much of an argument.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:24 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

...And on a slightly different note; if a child cannot survive without the care of the mother, and the mother decides that she will no longer care for the child, isn't that also her choice to make?
Never mind the morally inferior state of any person who makes such a desicion. My point is simply that I would rather see the child dead at 5 months of age than see an adult raised through abuse and neglect to become a liability to society or a danger to himself and the people around him....

Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that the mother has the right to kill a 5 month old child. Can you clarify this quotation?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:40 am
@Brandon9000,
No clarification needed. You seem to get it.

I am simply saying that if the responsibility of caring for that child belongs to the mother, and we then seek to punish her if she neglects that responsibility, we are invoking a moral double standard.

An example:
She gets pregnant by accident, and has no desire to have the baby. But if abortion isn't allowed, she will have to have it. But even after it's born, she wants nothing to do with it. So the child dies, from neglect. And we hold the mother accountable.
If you ask me, the accountable ones are those who forced her to have the baby in the first place.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:48 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

No clarification needed. You seem to get it.

I am simply saying that if the responsibility of caring for that child belongs to the mother, and we then seek to punish her if she neglects that responsibility, we are invoking a moral double standard.

An example:
She gets pregnant by accident, and has no desire to have the baby. But if abortion isn't allowed, she will have to have it. But even after it's born, she wants nothing to do with it. So the child dies, from neglect. And we hold the mother accountable.
If you ask me, the accountable ones are those who forced her to have the baby in the first place.

Alright, since you have confirmed that you would not hold a mother responsible for allowing a small child to die by neglect, then I think I'm going to just agree to disagree with you. That idea would pretty much discredit your opinions to any sane person, so I think it would be redundant for me to try to discredit them further.
rockpie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 09:14 am
@Cyracuz,
There really isn't that much difference between freedom and doing what you want, if there is can you clarify it? The way I see it is that in a state of freedom (or where I can choose to do things for myself), I would be free to do anything, even deprive others of their choices. If you're saying that we shouldn't deprive anyone of their choices, then that includes the choices of murderers to kill, thieves to steal, rapists to rape, etc.
0 Replies
 
rockpie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 09:16 am
@CalamityJane,
"we" refers to the vast majority of people that would see a mother leaving her child to die as immoral.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 10:29 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon, you misunderstand me.

I do not have any firmly semented opinions on any issue. What I am trying to do here is examine the issue from an angle that perhaps isn't looked at so often, all in the interest of debating and hopefully getting abit more insight into the problem.

Rockpie, your notion of freedom is perhaps a bit crude. I mean no disrespect, but keep in mind that freedom is a relative concept. To be free isn't neccesarily to be able to do what you want. And even if it was, a truth I have come to realize is that it is your actions that limit your freedom. If you were to kill someone, that would put you in a place where you had to watch out for others wanting revenge. You could even be hunted... You certainly wouldn't be free to go about your day as you wanted.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 11:05 am
@rockpie,
rockpie wrote:

"we" refers to the vast majority of people that would see a mother leaving her child to die as immoral.


You are mistaken, rockpie. The majority of people are pro choice and
no mother would leave her child to die - what you're referring to is terminating
a pregnancy within the legal boundaries. LEGAL is the operative word here,
so whatever your personal views are, they are yours and only yours, comprende?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 11:12 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
So, then, you are using a definition of human which involves being born as a requirement. That is just a defintion, and is not, as you stated, scientifically proven. If you think that it has been proven rather than defined, then, once again, I ask you to direct me to the proof.


What part don't you understand, Brandon? A medical dictionary states
what an embryo is. That's a fact, and not an opinion from someone. Do you
think it would be legal to terminate a pregnancy if the embryo would be
human? No, it would not, it would be murder! However, not only medically
but also legally, an embryo is not considered a human being. Thus, stem cell
research on embryos is not prohibited.

A human being is considered a human when he/she is able to live on its own!
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 12:15 pm
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
So, then, you are using a definition of human which involves being born as a requirement. That is just a defintion, and is not, as you stated, scientifically proven. If you think that it has been proven rather than defined, then, once again, I ask you to direct me to the proof.


What part don't you understand, Brandon? A medical dictionary states
what an embryo is. That's a fact, and not an opinion from someone. Do you
think it would be legal to terminate a pregnancy if the embryo would be
human? No, it would not, it would be murder! However, not only medically
but also legally, an embryo is not considered a human being. Thus, stem cell
research on embryos is not prohibited.

A human being is considered a human when he/she is able to live on its own!

Word definitions have nothing to do with what's moral and what's immoral. When you or anyone say that a fetus isn't a human being, you're only defining the term human being, or using a pre-existing definition of the term human being and not saying anything interesting about the morality of destroying it.

However, irrelevant as it is to the ethics of abortion, it's an interesting point. You did say that it had been proven scientifically isn't human. Show me the proof or take back your claim.
 

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